Still very new to the game but we are thinking that pikes are somewhat weak?

They are very expensive on a file-by-file basis considering that you need to pay for 4 ranks.

Factor wise they are good at stopping cavalry frontally, but no-one is going to attack them that way, and against infantry they are stuck in deep formation while other weapons can expand and get overlaps.

Same probably applies to long spear but to a lesser extent as they only need two ranks deep to be at their best factors.

Alexander's Macedonians should be quite a strong army based on their historical performance - but it does not seem to work out that way. Any advise and hints on how to use pikes (and long spear) would be most appreciated.

Well the Alex-Mac is not a bad army.

Use it the historical way mainly, use the companons to push through a weak spot. 

Do not let the pikes tugs get isolated, use the companon cavalry to punch on a flank or a weak spot of the opponent, hold the other flank with the cavalry that can skirmish or longspear/shieldcover foot is a possible way to do it.

Hi Gary,

The key point with pike is:
It has factors
It last long (4 rank deep)
They are usually drilled (easier to handle)
A few bg can block access of large chunk of the table

But it is scary (opponent might avoid them), it can't go in terrain, it is expansive, it doesn't cover much ground, it is slow, it doesn't cope well with shooters.

The other units of the army are critical to the victory (at least to pin the enemy to give enough time to the pike unit to arrive) but the pike are essential as moving fortress

Alexander used his pikes as an anvil, blocking the ennemy ( even charging across rivers and streams ) while the exceptionnal companions would go for ti at a weaker point . That's the key of the success . Now when campaining vs the parthian, Alexander did sometimes deploy his phalanxes in a much tiner formation ( in MEG one or 2 rank deep ) in order to avoid being outflanked.  Phalanxes will later remain a very dangerous opponent that will be defeated on the flanks ..some generals forgetting that a phalanx is a cumbersome beast with very fragile flanks .  In MEG the autors wanted to have a balance between pikes and romans which IMO is wrong as frontally the ohalanx always won when deployed correctly and in open terrain . But all in all it works ..Use your phalanxes wisely as they can break the ennemy quickly if they cooperate , coordinate and you protect the flank 

Quote from: badhabum on January 27, 2021, 11:01:17 AM
In MEG the autors wanted to have a balance between pikes and romans which IMO is wrong as frontally the ohalanx always won when deployed correctly and in open terrain . But all in all it works ..Use your phalanxes wisely as they can break the ennemy quickly if they cooperate , coordinate and you protect the flank 

Sorry Jacques,

the authors are right, and the balance is ok between the pike and the roman in open.
the battle is hard frontally against the pikemen but historically they were beaten on their flanks or due to the bad ground ( Asculum, Cynosephales).

only the best TUGs can win against the pike frontally and they can have many losses , pike against pike frontally is a lottery 

à te lire 

Gilles

Well dear French Jester, I wrote frontally, deployed correctly and in open terrain .... you are right the romans won in rough terrain and on the flanks but not frontally ..and I did not write about pikes vs pikes ...OK 

Quote from: badhabum on January 27, 2021, 05:10:19 PM
you are right the romans won in rough terrain and on the flanks but not frontally

This not correct - I'll let you rummage around to find out why 

On the Roman vs pike interaction I would agree with Gilles that it is correct, with the caveat that you are grading the troops appropriately for the battle/period in question and not just as the best the army list allows you to as the lists cover a wide variety of armies as their basis. Sadly people often forget this when looking at interactions 

Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 27, 2021, 05:21:55 PM

Quote from: badhabum on January 27, 2021, 05:10:19 PM
you are right the romans won in rough terrain and on the flanks but not frontally

This not correct - I'll let you rummage around to find out why 

Actually, I may be relying a bit too much on memory on this and can't be arsed to go and check so feel free to ignore. But the classification point stands 

To my knoweledge, romans never won frontally unless helped by some rough terrain/lack of coordination ( Pydna )  or  flank attack/rear assault ( Thermopylae romans vs seleucid  ) or when the phalanx was still not fully deployed ( Cynoscephalae ). At magnesia, they still dared not go in vs the phalanxes and waited till the beautifull nellies broke the seleucid ranks   

I did not say the romans never won ..just that frontally, with flanks protected, open terrain ...they could not magae " frontally"  if the pikes are in good order .;deployed not surprised ..see the difference

So our experience yesterday:

8 average protected pike bases in two files approch 8 average protected bow bases in 4 files.

Ignoring that the pike might lose a base on the way in to shooting, in the charge combat the pike are up 2 so two yellow vs two white combat dice - statistically on average the pike will do five sixths of a kill, while the bow will do two sixths of a kill. A shove outcome may improve that a little for the pike. Lets say the bow are one base down.

In the melee the pike remain up 2, so again, two yellow combat dice vs two white plus two black for the bow overlaps. The pike could move their 4th rank bases out to make it two green vs green combats on the outer files but that may be better for the bows? Again maybe a loss of a base for the bow and by now probably a loss of a base for the pike.

At this "average" rate of attrition the pike will win, but it will take 3 to 5 or even 6 turns depending on luck of the rolls - not exactly a walk-over for the pikes.

Against Polearms or 2HCC the pikes are less advantaged.

Given the cost of the pikes (x4 bases per file), they seem a little weak/expensive on a per file basis.

The units cannot be considered in isolation. And I'd caution downplaying the benefits of that shove to get up to Red.

A mass of pikes will also dictate what the opponent does with their cav (and ranged) deployments. Moreover, as mentioned on several occasions, pikes are fantastic anvils that allow the rest of your army to flank or break through.

Playing with or against pikes many times I have never ever thought they were suboptimal. Except for the Swiss, they are not some sort of porcupine panzer, if that is what you wanted. But they win most attrition, at least long enough to manuever the rest of your army, often allow you to seize the initiative in deployments.

Even my crap Scottish pikes (combat shy...) cause experienced opponents to pause. 

RE: Alex.Mac. example, a few have already highlighted an optimal way to run them - pikes as anvils and the exceptional cav with Leg. leader (no prizes for guessing who that is) to smash just about anything on contact and get around behind the opponent's battle line.

MEG is an attrition game usually. There is (except maybe in Pacto) not that many games with fresh TUGs getting blown up on contact across the board - Pikes will often win out over time in the grind - just use good tactics (ie dont leave 1-2 TUGs off on their own without support or run them around picking a fight against Romans inside a forest).

Keep playing, try different lists. Its a fun system. And I love my pikes. Personally, I'd like them to be slightly cheaper - they were once too cheap and may of gotten a heavy stick as a result, but perfectly playable as is.

Dru

Quote from: Dru on January 28, 2021, 06:51:19 AM
Keep playing, try different lists. Its a fun system. And I love my pikes. Personally, I'd like them to be slightly cheaper - they were once too cheap and may of gotten a heavy stick as a result, but perfectly playable as is.

I don't think pikes can get any cheaper. Under the current builder, drilled pikes are only one point more per base than drilled longspear, and act just like longspear when in two or fewer ranks.

So I guess if your pikemen aren't working for you, you can always expand your frontage and transmute them into hoplites! (minus shield cover)

I've also been very impressed with pikes. Every time I've borrowed an army with pikes in it, they've been a godsend. They're not going to blanket steamroll everything in their way, but they often fight at an advantage in melee, and even when outmatched they take an exceptionally long time to die. (And being able to lose slowly to a more powerful unit is a wonderful ability in this game!)

Keep experimenting with those pikemen and they'll do solid work for you!

Quote from: garyp on January 28, 2021, 04:27:00 AM
So our experience yesterday:

8 average protected pike bases in two files approch 8 average protected bow bases in 4 files.

Ignoring that the pike might lose a base on the way in to shooting, in the charge combat the pike are up 2 so two yellow vs two white combat dice - statistically on average the pike will do five sixths of a kill, while the bow will do two sixths of a kill. A shove outcome may improve that a little for the pike. Lets say the bow are one base down.

In the melee the pike remain up 2, so again, two yellow combat dice vs two white plus two black for the bow overlaps. The pike could move their 4th rank bases out to make it two green vs green combats on the outer files but that may be better for the bows? Again maybe a loss of a base for the bow and by now probably a loss of a base for the pike.

At this "average" rate of attrition the pike will win, but it will take 3 to 5 or even 6 turns depending on luck of the rolls - not exactly a walk-over for the pikes.

Against Polearms or 2HCC the pikes are less advantaged.

Given the cost of the pikes (x4 bases per file), they seem a little weak/expensive on a per file basis.

A better test is 3 pike TuGs vs something.  You will then feel the Shove effects cutting in and what also happens usually is the concentration of damage as 2 width pikes hammer away at 3 wide anomy TuGs (usually). They are really designed to work in blocks.

So for the above try 3 pike vs 3 bow with the bow 3 wide with 2 at the back.  Skirmish screen advisable attacking that.