Finding it not particularly easy to put together a decent Later Crusader list for Magna.  It's one of those lists where, for me, the simple Magna calculations of two thirds doesn't work that well.  In a Maxima sized list you could field up to 24 bases of knights (including the Sergeants and Military Orders), a few more if you count the Separate Sergeants option.  One might therefore expect that in Magna you'd be able to field up to 16, 4 units of 4 for preference and survivability. 

Unless I'm missing something, two things make that a bit difficult.  The base count per unit type and the TUG sizes of 4,6.  I guess it's doable but only if you take 2 x 2 base TUGs of knights.  I'm not sure how effective they'd be in Magna though, quite vulnerable I'd guess, seems to be more of Pacto sized TUG.  In this case it seems that the list can scale quite well down to Pacto but not so much for Magna, pushing the infantry proportion too high if you are not keen on risking 2 element knight TUGs. 

Ideally I'd prefer to take 2 x Crusader Knight / Sergeant TUGs of 4 each and maybe 2 x Military Order TUGs of Knights / Sergeants of 4 which overall would give you the 16 bases of 'knights' you'd expect to be able to take while at the same time not forcing you to take smaller and more vulnerable 2 base units.  The list math, the way the list is organised with element and TUG count, seems to be getting in the way of designing an effective force in this case.  It's instances like this where Magna specific lists might be useful, an option may be to increase the min / max for the Crusader Knights / Sergeants in Magna allowing you to take the 16 knight elements you would be 'entitled' to but in 4 units of 4, not 3 of 4 and 2 of 2.

You may be correct and indeed one of the reasons we are doing separate lists for Mgan and Pacto from next year so we can get rid of the 1/3 2/3 and smooth the numbers.

I'll take a look and report back.

Si

Thanks Simon.  Like I say, I don't have a problem with the overall proportions, merely that I'd prefer to be able to structure the army by taking 4 x 4 Kn/Sgt units rather than 3 x 4 and 2 x 2.

Balance is an issue.
4x4 Knights would be brutal and probably unfun for others like foot armies to face in Pacto

Balance might be an issue IF we were talking about Pacto but the post is about MAGNA not Pacto, as is also made clear in the thread title, 'Later Crusader - (Magna)'.  In Pacto the list can be cut down without problems as 2 base TUGs of knights are viable.  Pacto was only mentioned in the context of 2 base TUGs in the game and that the list can scale down well for Pacto but not so well for Magna if you want to take more survivable knight TUGs, which is not unreasonable.

It's not the same in Magna.  If the assumption is that the Maxima lists are balanced correctly (and I'm not suggesting they are not), in Maxima you can take 24 bases of knights / sergeants in TUGs of 4-6.  For Magna that would scale down to 16 bases.  There is no balance issue at all in Magna as 2/3 of 24 is 16, so provided you are taking no more than 16 bases of knights / sergeants in combined TUGs, all will be well.  In Magna however, 2 base TUGs of knights are less viable than 4, the PROBLEM is that the Min/Max levels as they scale down from Maxima in the Later Crusader list won't allow you to take 4 units of 4 as it doesn't fit the divide by 2/3 on a per knight type basis (e.g. Crusader and Military Order, it's essentially 3 types of knights each split into two troop types as a combined TUG, and each with their own min /max of 2-4), forcing you to take 3 x 4 and 2 x 2 if you want 16 bases of knights (as was all explained in the first and third post).  Pacto is not the issue here, the issue is that you should IMO be able to take 4 x knights / Sgts of 4 bases each in MAGNA, not be forced to take 3 x 4 and 2 x 2 because of the list math if you want the full 16.

When the MAGNA specific lists come out, changing the Crusader Knight option to Knights 2-8 / Sergeants 2-8 with TUGs of 4-6 might be an appropriate fix, limiting the Military Orders to 1 TUG of each but with a max of 4 bases per TUG (2 knights / 2 sergeants), thus disallowing the current option to take any extra 2 TUG bases for the Orders (which would throw the balance out), either that or put something in the notes to say the total bases of combined Knight / Sergeant TUGs may not exceed 16.

That was a very angry reply. I hope you are ok. I know some people are doing it tough this year.

No issues with Magna being looked at (maybe 3x4 and 2x2 is what they intend, maybe 4x4 is what they want - we'll see once they do a revisit).

My reply was misreading Si's adding of PACTO into the convo. All good.  Its ok to be calmer about our toys

Cheers,
Dru

Not sure how you saw the reply as angry at all, let alone "very angry"? I merely pointed out that the thread IS about Magna which was also made clear in the title.  That's angry?  Strange.  A degree of over sensitivity on your part I think.

The point of my reply was to ensure the thread didn't de-rail into a Pacto discussion, point out that I wasn't sure where the confusion had arisen from (and I'm still not) and also to clarify exactly what the issue is with the list in Magna in this case.

I'm perfectly calm thanks though, as an aside, I do take some exception in all honesty to people misinterpreting a reply and then going even further to suggest to others they can be calmer but seeing as we're doing behavioural suggestions, it's also OK to take the time to read and comprehend a thread fully before replying 

Okay - as it happens I have just started work on the Crusader lists for 2021.  All the list sets for 2021 will include Magna and Pacto lists as well as the Maximus lists.  As you might imagine, this has been a big undertaking, particularly as the list sets will show the points values as well.  Fortunately there are relatively few list changes for 2021.

The Later Crusader list for Magna will allow 2 TuGs of 4 mixed knights and sergeants.  It will allow 1 TuG of 4 separate sergeants. In the Military Order contingent it will allow 1 TuG of 4 mixed knights and sergeants.  It will separately allow a TuG of 2 brother knights who will have a special rule exempting them from the requirement to be 2 elements wide.

p.s. TuGs of 6 in Magna are normally only available for TuGs that can have 9s in Maximus.

Richard

Massive amount of work I'm sure, very grateful for the work being done on this, it will certainly make speed reading lists to compare them more easily when looking at army compositions for similar armies, either for play or purchase.

Can't quite visualise how it will work / look as it's sometimes harder from description but no need to go into the detail here.  Just two questions though, will the total allowed for Magna still be 16 bases of knight / sergeant TUGs (e.g. excluding the TUG of X separate sergeants), 2/3 of the Maximus list, or are the numbers being cut in proportion to the latter?  I'm assuming too, for the Military Orders, it will still allow two contingents of mixed Knights / Sergeants?  Would be strange not to be able to field an equal size TUG of Templars and Hospitallers, at least sometimes.

Total allowed for Magna will actually be potentially more than 16 for 3rd/5th Crusade, if you have 2 military order contingents and brother knights.
Yes - still allowed 2 military order contingents.

Richard

Thanks Richard.  Rather than me assuming what will / will not be reduced and by what amount, one final question, would the following be 'legal' under the Magna List (this is mainly to help me decide which army to divert a number of recently purchased figures towards and whether to try and swing using a 2021 Magna List army in next week's event LOL)?

TUG 1
Crusader Knights 2 / Sergeants 2

TUG 2
Crusader Knights 2 / Sergeants 2

TUG 3
Military Order (Contingent 1) Knights 2 / Sergeants 2

TUG 4
Military Order (Contingent 2) Knights 2 / Sergeants 2

Its great we are doing separate lists as it really allows us to flex the lists to fit the systems around the edges.  Herculean effort by Richard! 

Si

Quote from: Mars on November 17, 2020, 04:18:04 AM
Thanks Richard.  Rather than me assuming what will / will not be reduced and by what amount, one final question, would the following be 'legal' under the Magna List (this is mainly to help me decide which army to divert a number of recently purchased figures towards and whether to try and swing using a 2021 Magna List army in next week's event LOL)?

TUG 1
Crusader Knights 2 / Sergeants 2

TUG 2
Crusader Knights 2 / Sergeants 2

TUG 3
Military Order (Contingent 1) Knights 2 / Sergeants 2

TUG 4
Military Order (Contingent 2) Knights 2 / Sergeants 2

Yes.

Brilliant!  Thanks.  List and painting queue adjusted

Just thought I'd add this one here just as an FYI.  Faced an 'issue' (for want of a better word) when playing Feudal English over the weekend.

It was regarding the Royal and Flemish Knights both of which are 0-4 / TUG 4 in Maxima. As such the TUG becomes 2 in both Pacto and Magna.  In Pacto the 2 base TUGs are very brittle but everyone is in the same boat in Pacto given the default TUG sizes but with Magna there is no middle ground in terms of survivability, they just drop from OK at 4 to an even more brittle than Pacto 2 in Magna (more brittle given that most other units in Magna generally will be able to scale down to a more survivable size of 4-6 plus).

We had some lengthy discussions about their usability in the Magna level game pretty much concluding that other than against a couple of distinct troop types they were just too fragile and expensive to be risked in a general combat role but, at near on a 1,000 points for the two units, they are costly to hold in reserve to use more surgically.  Given their performance in the games we played over the weekend I wouldn't use either of the units in a Magna list again, too expensive given that they can only be taken in the extremely fragile Pacto numbers. At 500 points or so, for me a 2 base TUG is only a viable option in Pacto.

Merely raise the issue following discussions we had yesterday given the intention to produce Magna and Pacto Specific lists.  Clearly any units that start with base of 0-4 with a a TUG of 4 will be affected in the same way, the more expensive those units are the less viable they are as an option in Magna IMO and definitely not at 500 points or so per unit.  Regardless of whether there might be good uses for them in certain circumstances there's no getting away from the fact that there is no middle ground option for them in the mid-tier Magna game, it's either 4 or 2.