Points variance - Skirmish units

Started by Plantagenet, October 11, 2020, 07:56:04 AM

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Plantagenet

I've only noticed this with regard to one list (Seleucid) and am trying to understand the reasoning (merely out of curiosity) behind the pointing of certain skirmish units within that list.  Note I'm not saying I disagree with them, just trying to get my head around the basis upon which the points are decided and what factors might be influencing them which may not be readily identifiable (e.g the relationship of certain units to other similar units in different lists where the points may be different).

In this example, looking at skirmish troops (all of the same quality /protection of Experienced, Poor, Unprotected, Combat Shy), the cost per base is:

Javelin: 22 (range 2)
Sling: 32 (range 3)
Bow: 37 (range 4)

Given that the only thing that seems to differentiate the units on face value is the range, and given that one sits in the middle (exactly) of the other two, what is it that makes the sling worth a 10 point increase over the bow?  Not having the book yet (still on the ship) there may also be some weapon effect I've missed that increases the proportionate lethality between sling and javelin more than it does between sling and bow.

Likewise, for a similar increase in range of another one BW, the bow costs only 5 to increase.  Is it that the increase of one from the 2 to 3 range is worth (for other reasons beyond the simple math) more than the increase of 1 from the 3 to 4 range.  If there is nothing deeper than that the cost of getting the extra 1 base width from javelin to bow is disproportionate to the cost of increase going from range 3 to 4 e.g.

Javelin: 22
Sling: 29 or 30
Bow: 37

on face value seems more reasonable.  As it stands now there seems to be better 'value' (if merely looking at points) in paying 15 points more to go to range 4 from Javelins than 10 points to go from javelin to sling at range 3.  Of course, in the grand scheme of things the points 'saving' overall is probably negligible.

daveparish

#1
Maybe it's about how you could use them. For instance if skirmishing against heavy foot that one BW extra range (sling to javelin) halves the chances of being caught if you skirmish. If you are trying to get in sneaky shots between your other units or at the end of a line then the extra distance really helps to fit the SUG into a place it can shoot. If I can (ie after spending points on key things) I would always upgrade foot javelin SUGs to sling or bow. I think I'm saying that it's not about where sling sits compared to jav or bow it is that Javelin is significantly less useful than either of sling or bow, hence (I guess) the discontinuity in the points scale.

sppenn

Interesting question.  It makes me want to do an experiment with figures.  I'm thinking I will line up a bunch of skirmishers (lots with different shooting weapons) and position them all just within range of a line of enemy close infantry.  The enemy infantry will be in a straight line, but the shooters will be at different distances from the infantry.  Then choose to skirmish or run away on various shooters and see what happens.  I'm guessing the initial distances, max move of the enemy infantry (3 MU) and the skirmish/run away table all interact to produce different results. Then try it again against enemy loose infantry.  Then try again against enemy skirmishers. 

Yeah, I'm sure that would help me understand the game better and further develop my skill at the game.  Maybe I will be ready in time for Historicon.   :D   

daveparish

Yeah these rules feel simple but the interactions can't be cracked just by looking at the data, you have to get figures out on the table ... preferably with an opponent (or at least that's what I think). Another way to look at the same question is to think of a zone close to figures (about 1-3 BW away) where stuff is always happening - look how many rules apply in that zone (everything from a shooting plus against unprotected SUGs to charging TUGs stepping forwards to free charges for some TUGs). Most of the time many of those things won't affect a SUG  but there are enough of them going on close up that there will relatively often be something happening to the SUG because of one of them. Javelin armed SUGs need to get into that zone to shoot while sling and bow can lurk on the edges of it.

Simon Meg-Meister

AS the war doctor (Dave P) mentions thing are a lot more subtle than it appears once you get the troop on the table.

Essentially as you get closer to the enemy you have a much higher chance of beige. caught. So range matters quite a lot.

By example:

1) Jav range 2BW.  Enemy charge with infantry 3BW. So if you skirmish to get full firepower your average one backwards is 2BW. So its 4BW on average vs 3BW before the random dice roll - which can take you down 2. actually 1 in 3 chance of getting caught with average troops.
2) Now move to slings. Range 3BW. So on average if keeping at max range you will end up 5 away. 1 in 6 chance of getting caught.
3) Bows if they keep at 4BW can't be caught if they skirmish back as still4 BW away.

Then in real game situations you never quite manage longest range all the time.  But certainly the longer range makes a sizeable difference once you get on the table. Then add other shooting back and it all seems about right.  So while they do the same damage you will on average get more shots out of your longer range skirmishers. 

Si
Rolling Skulls in the land or Purple

Plantagenet

Thanks for the replies, interesting, I had a feeling there had to be more to it than the ranges but not having played enough games yet (and the fact that my bloody book is stuck on a raft probably somewhere in the North Atlantic) I was interested to see what factors might be.

Simon Meg-Meister

You can enjoy the dynamics when it lands.
A warm purple welcome aboard.

Si
Rolling Skulls in the land or Purple