Missile focused troops do not get a forced or free charge against TuGs (9.4 B 2 p117).  If they have Charging Lancer or Devastating Chargers they get a free charge against enemy SUGs within 3BW directly ahead. (9.4 C1 p 118).

Richard

So they can clear away enemy skirmishers in one with the philosophy of the rules.
All nice and precise now and settled so please all just move on as is.

A great period of growth already happening.
And it hasn't even made the trade yet.
Gaining players form all systems that I haven't even heard of at all.

FB followers has gone from 935 before launch to now 1400 and rising.

Happy days.  Onwards and upwards.

S

Good to hear growth in numbers 

Quote from: nikgaukroger on June 09, 2020, 06:36:42 AM

Quote
Troops that have both a missile weapon and skilled, experienced or unskilled shooting. Therefore, the integral shooter characteristic alone does not count, nor does charge-only shooting as designed to shoot immediately before combat, rather than sustained shooting.

Thanks, Nik.

The knights in the mixed units do not meet that definition. To me it is still unclear. Some bases of the TuG have Forced Charge and others to not. How does one know which has precedent?  I would argue that the presence of crossbows in the mixed TuGs historically would not have changed the fighting character of the knights, who would still need to be restrained from forced charging.

It's all very clear now in the rules.

If anything should have charge override in style they should be charge-only shooters going forward so this is the option to ponder.  I know little of them but suspect that might be a better list interp for them.  So open it up as a list consideration if yo think so once you've got the rulebook.

S

Quote from: RobAustin on June 09, 2020, 03:10:13 PM

Quote from: nikgaukroger on June 09, 2020, 06:36:42 AM

Quote
Troops that have both a missile weapon and skilled, experienced or unskilled shooting. Therefore, the integral shooter characteristic alone does not count, nor does charge-only shooting as designed to shoot immediately before combat, rather than sustained shooting.

Thanks, Nik.

The knights in the mixed units do not meet that definition. To me it is still unclear. Some bases of the TuG have Forced Charge and others to not. How does one know which has precedent?  I would argue that the presence of crossbows in the mixed TuGs historically would not have changed the fighting character of the knights, who would still need to be restrained from forced charging.

You need to read the forced charge bit in the charge section of the rules which, in conjunction with the glossary bit on missile focused gives you what you need :-)

Quote
The following UGs are forced to charge unless held or claiming an exception below in item 2.2:
• TuGs with any bases that are charging lancer or devastating chargers must forced charge enemy TuGs (except flexibles in SuG form) within 3BW directly ahead, unless they are themselves missile focused (does not include charge-only shooters or integral shooters).
• TuGs that are not missile focused must forced charge enemy TuGs within 1BW directly ahead.
• SuGs with the feigned flight characteristic are treated as TuGs for the purposes of the above.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on June 09, 2020, 05:15:22 PM

Quote
The following UGs are forced to charge unless held or claiming an exception below in item 2.2:
• TuGs with any bases that are charging lancer or devastating chargers must forced charge enemy TuGs (except flexibles in SuG form) within 3BW directly ahead, unless they are themselves missile focused (does not include charge-only shooters or integral shooters).
• TuGs that are not missile focused must forced charge enemy TuGs within 1BW directly ahead.
• SuGs with the feigned flight characteristic are treated as TuGs for the purposes of the above.

Unfortunately the "unless they are themselves missile focused" in the first bullet point could be read as applying to the lancer  bases rather than the whole TUG. Also unfortunately the definition of missile focused on p271 talks about troops rather than TUGs so could also be taken as those bases not the whole TUG. So you could argue that a mixed unit like the Poles has a forced charge. I know that's not the intent and I wouldn't play it that way - but I think you now need your second clarrie!

To me, this clearly says they must forced charge:

• TuGs with any bases that are charging lancer or devastating chargers must forced charge enemy TuGs (except flexibles in SuG form) within 3BW directly ahead, unless they are themselves missile focused (does not include charge-only shooters or integral shooters).

The knight bases are are "any bases that are charging lancer..." and they are not themselves missile focused.

Quote from: RobAustin on June 09, 2020, 06:57:05 PM
To me, this clearly says they must forced charge:

• TuGs with any bases that are charging lancer or devastating chargers must forced charge enemy TuGs (except flexibles in SuG form) within 3BW directly ahead, unless they are themselves missile focused (does not include charge-only shooters or integral shooters).

The knight bases are are "any bases that are charging lancer..." and they are not themselves missile focused.

Certainly my reading - the "they themselves" clearly applies to the "bases that are charging lancer or devastating chargers" part. Nothing in this section is about a whole TuG.

In respect of Dave's comments I think this is quite deliberate and allows distinctions between troops who are "double armed" with CL/DC and a missile capability and those who are not - even if the latter are in a TuG with other troops who have a missile capability. This allows subtle differences to be made when classifying troops. I see no reason for any clarification. Of course, it may well throw up some troop classifications that could benefit from looking at again.

I'd also suggest that if the Compendium rule reduces the number of cases where a Free Charge applies that is, IMO, a good thing - Free Charge is pretty powerful.

Quote from: nikgaukroger on June 09, 2020, 07:11:45 PM

Quote from: RobAustin on June 09, 2020, 06:57:05 PM
To me, this clearly says they must forced charge:

• TuGs with any bases that are charging lancer or devastating chargers must forced charge enemy TuGs (except flexibles in SuG form) within 3BW directly ahead, unless they are themselves missile focused (does not include charge-only shooters or integral shooters).

The knight bases are are "any bases that are charging lancer..." and they are not themselves missile focused.

Certainly my reading - the "they themselves" clearly applies to the "bases that are charging lancer or devastating chargers" part. Nothing in this section is about a whole TuG.

In respect of Dave's comments I think this is quite deliberate and allows distinctions between troops who are "double armed" with CL/DC and a missile capability and those who are not - even if the latter are in a TuG with other troops who have a missile capability. This allows subtle differences to be made when classifying troops. I see no reason for any clarification. Of course, it may well throw up some troop classifications that could benefit from looking at again.

I'd also suggest that if the Compendium rule reduces the number of cases where a Free Charge applies that is, IMO, a good thing - Free Charge is pretty powerful.

Yes. I would argue that the mixed Polish TuG are under Forced Charge until or unless all the knights in the TuG are killed. After that, the remaining bases are all Missile Focused.

Quote from: RobAustin on June 09, 2020, 06:57:05 PM
To me, this clearly says they must forced charge:

• TuGs with any bases that are charging lancer or devastating chargers must forced charge enemy TuGs (except flexibles in SuG form) within 3BW directly ahead, unless they are themselves missile focused (does not include charge-only shooters or integral shooters).

The knight bases are are "any bases that are charging lancer..." and they are not themselves missile focused.

I must admit I hadn't read it that way until now.  It is the " they are themselves" bit that I didn't absorb until now.  So I agree, the Polish knights are subject to forced charges.  I may need to re-think how they are classified - I will start a new topic under list queries.

Richard

I think we tend to look at UGs as a whole generally and not separate base types within them - until this question came up I hadn't really clocked the implication of the wording either. I'd had a look at the rule as I've been looking at Khwarasmians who are CL and Experienced Bow - but the implications were not obvious.

Quote from: lionheartrjc on June 10, 2020, 08:35:18 AM

Quote from: RobAustin on June 09, 2020, 06:57:05 PM
To me, this clearly says they must forced charge:

• TuGs with any bases that are charging lancer or devastating chargers must forced charge enemy TuGs (except flexibles in SuG form) within 3BW directly ahead, unless they are themselves missile focused (does not include charge-only shooters or integral shooters).

The knight bases are are "any bases that are charging lancer..." and they are not themselves missile focused.

I must admit I hadn't read it that way until now.  It is the " they are themselves" bit that I didn't absorb until now.  So I agree, the Polish knights are subject to forced charges.  I may need to re-think how they are classified - I will start a new topic under list queries.

Richard

OK - but this is a change from how it has always been played pre-Compendium times ( ...as far as I know....) so still worth a clarrie or at least a confirmation from Simon that this is intended. On the history - why did the Poles include crossbows with knights? My naive idea was they softened up the opponent with fire and then charged (which would support a free charge) but maybe they went for it pell-mell and the crossbows just added extra sting to the charge (which would support a forced charge). I know it's not just all about the Poles but it's an example of what you are trying to represent with this combination of TUG formation and the rules

Quote from: daveparish on June 11, 2020, 09:44:33 AM
OK - but this is a change from how it has always been played pre-Compendium times ( ...as far as I know....) so still worth a clarrie or at least a confirmation from Simon that this is intended. On the history - why did the Poles include crossbows with knights? My naive idea was they softened up the opponent with fire and then charged (which would support a free charge) but maybe they went for it pell-mell and the crossbows just added extra sting to the charge (which would support a forced charge). I know it's not just all about the Poles but it's an example of what you are trying to represent with this combination of TUG formation and the rules

I agree it is a Compendium change, but from emails from Simon I believe it is intended.
On the history point - I have answered this in the List Queries section.

Richard

Certainly intended from what Simon has said and, IMO, a good thing.