Hi
Looking at the Ming list their expendables, the thunder bomb oxen have changed. They used to be Battle Chariots, Poor, Combat Shy which gave them a magnificent nett 0 factor against many things. Now that Battle Chariot has gone they are Cavalry, Devastating Charger, Poor, Combat Shy. The first problem with this is that to get DC you have to be two deep. I'm not quite sure what two deep thunder bomb oxen represent - perhaps you form a column so that they blow each other up and the sympathetic detonation makes a bigger bang? The second is that are in a unit of three so only one file can be two deep and so now they are on a nett -2 for one file and -1 for the other ... even before counting the opponents factors.
They were a marginally effective fun unit before - now they are probably useless. Can I suggest either removing the Poor and Combat Shy ratings or giving them a special rule allowing DC factors for one rank deep and then removing the Combat Shy. Either would get them back to near their previous magnificently ineffective but fun status
Dave P
Even if 1 rank deep they get the shatter - if not the factor, so you always have the 1/6 no matter the colour. I agree that poor and combat shy is over egging it a bit. To get the skull (and the extra Shatter option) you'd need green , which given that most have +1 or +2 , its going to be difficult to achieve.
Yeah, Battle Chariots got a shatter too and even then I never achieved one! So now they are worse it is not going to happen often enough to be significant.
I know this is a niche issue - and they definitely shouldn't be good, just ineffectual enough to be amusing and no worse!
Wonder if they are better as expendables?
S
Sorry, I left that bit out for conciseness. They are also Expendables (were before as well). Which makes it even less likely that you'll get a Shatter because you only get one try.
Ah I see so you are looking for the GREEN to have two chances.
Aren't they really cheap through now so just chuck them in 4 wide and see if you get S results?
If you do on the first one all hell breaks loose as you get a kill and shatter.
And the +2 might get you to green for the ones next to it. Ouch!!
What costs three vs the old ones?
Si
They are an obscure troop type I admit - but the situation is that they are in a unit of 3 and under the old classification would have been rolling a black or white and hoping for an S shatter to get an adjacent file up to a green - and now they will be on black but the number is so low that even with a shatter the adjacent file will still be on a black , or possibly white.
It's no biggy - but at the moment I wouldn't take them, which is a shame because the Ming are all about the entertaining gimmicks (well, in my mind anyway)
It does give them the same factors as my ordinary stampeding moos other lists, surely these cows of the gods are a bit more 'special' as they might explode any moment?
Oohh, I hadn't thought of that argument! Yes I would think that an exploding cow would be more scary than a normal cow - but what do I know?
Don't milk it...
As I am sure you are aware, the purpose of the thunder-bombs was to make the oxen stampede, not to blow them up!
Instant bbq! :o
Quote from: lionheartrjc on November 22, 2019, 07:20:07 AM
As I am sure you are aware, the purpose of the thunder-bombs was to make the oxen stampede, not to blow them up!
OK, that's a new bit of information. I guess I was going on my figures which have barrels of gunpowder strapped to the oxen. Probably not a good idea to get your history from figure manufacturers! Do you have any reference for that (not that I doubt you - just that I'm interested now)
Dave P
Ooh I've found a reference on my own bookshelf!
This is from a book called Fire and Water by Ralph Sawyer and the reference he gives is "Wu-pei Chih "Huo ch'i T'u-shao", 10" which from what he says is a Ming Dynasty text.
Sawyers description of this (on page 125 of his book) is:-
"...another variant mounted a large explosive bomb on the ox's back and boldly employed it as a brutal, automated bomb-delivery system, though with the usual side spears affixed to prevent it being easily intercepted" and on the same page about another variant which seems to involve a pyramid shaped (?) explosive and firebrands attached to the tail he says "...even though the incendiary and consternation effects were primary,the explosive would of course detonate and the ox perish"
There seem to be lots of variants including just flaming rags attached to the oxens tails and even flaming rags attached to chickens - but there seems to be definite evidence for my exploding cow interpretation.
Very good. Exploding oxen like artillery when they hit things...?
Hilarious
S
Quote from: daveparish on November 22, 2019, 11:25:14 AM
There seem to be lots of variants including just flaming rags attached to the oxens tails and even flaming rags attached to chickens - but there seems to be definite evidence for my exploding cow interpretation.
(https://i.imgur.com/MRRjj9n.png)
(https://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/miltech/6wjzfrox.jpg)
Now that's a conversion challenge! 8)
Quote from: RocketSix on November 22, 2019, 04:37:57 PM
(https://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/miltech/6wjzfrox.jpg)
Yeah I found that picture too. Following the link it seems to be a Ming era drawing. It seems that this ploy is mentioned quite often in Chinese military texts over the years (bit like the Byzantine texts - they all copied the older versions then added their own bits). This is the version with blades and spears and a firebrand on the tail. Apparently the Ming kept all these ideas and just added a bomb.
With all this historical fun I have lost focus on the game question and maybe other people have too, so I'll try and summarise:
a) In 2019 Thunder bomb oxen were Battle Chariots (Poor, Combat Shy Expendable etc). They were very ineffective - the best I ever did was two wounds before dying, the dream of somehow getting a string of Shatters never happens in reality on the table top
b) In 2020 Battle Chariot disappears as a classification and so they become Devastating Charger Cavalry (Poor, Combat Shy, Expendable etc). This is two factors worse than in 2019 (or one factor worse if you go two deep ... which seems historically wrong, adds only one factor to one file and gives up a file, so less chance of a Shatter and can only be done in one file because it is a unit of three)
c) I'm suggesting restoring them to their 2019 level (perhaps by removing the Combat Shy and Poor classifications)
d) Lots of fun historical evidence emerged
No intention to change. The Poor/Combat Shy makes them cheaper. They still have a (low) chance of causing Skulls.
Richard
OK - but I think they have gone from a low chance to no chance (literally no chance because if they start on -2 they can't get up to green even with a Shatter).
You have answered the question though - in MeG an exploding cow is now exactly as scary as a normal cow
If the cow are supposed to explose:
1- I don't picture how they could survive even if winning the combat and routing the opponent
2- I don't picture how the opponent will be sheltered from the explosion if the oxen reach the target.
I m not sure the expandable in that case should work as per what is done with other expandable (hostages, chariots...)
There are an awful lot of one-off gimmicks covered together in MeG (and almost all Ancient rules) as Expendables. For example how do scythed chariots fight if the drivers bale out before contact, how do you stop a stampeding elephant etc. What they have in common is that they weren't used very often - if they were they would be modelled as a mainstream troop type. That suggests they weren't very effective - and so shouldn't be very effective on the tabletop.
I like oddities in my armies so I was arguing that this troop type should not be downgraded but should stay effective enough to be fun - but I quite understand if Richard wants to err on the side of caution and make sure gimmicks aren't too powerful.
In answer to your questions:-
1. They didn't
2. They wouldn't be
3. That's true but in fact almost every type of expendable could justify some sort of special rule - which would make the MeG ruleset very long