READ THE OVERALL ONE ON THE 2020 COMPENDIUM BEFORE THIS POST
List changes will be limited to the following.
Chariots
Re-defined to be more historical and to make them more viable as shooting plaforms. I believe this will improve these armies character in period and viability in open play.
1. Battle Chariot removed as we now believe there is really no such thing. All becoming just "Chariots". They can therefore evade as cavalry (if allowed to by other rules - so if hey have missile weapons and no Scythed Chariots cannot evade!), flank march and break off. And all will move 5BW.
2. Better chariots simply have increasing additions in weapons and characteristics, so the heaviest ones become Chariot, Superior, Arm Hrs/Prot, SSp, Exp-Bw, Devastating Charger, Melee Expert. The larger 4 horse ones just aloow larger cews and greater weaponry. The 3 and 4 horse chariots will work better in and out of period.
Single base additions to TuGs revised
These do not work in practice so we are removing them and finding another way
1. English Longbows will be given a ME option to represent a high % of MAA intermingled.
2. Chinese types revert to simply two different ranks of troops.
Feigned Flight
1. We will be adding this to a short subset of armies that used it.
Japanese
These lists will be adjusted for evolution from single bamboo to triple Yumi
1. PBw to cut in later than currently
2. Heian period to be average-Bw, Kamakura Skilled-bow, Skilled-Pbw thereafter
Individual List Changes
There is a short list of minor improvements to other lists that are not often seen to make them a bit more viable.
Nothing else is planned so your armies should be just as good as they are today - or better.
Points changes have a decrease for bows and otherwise minor internal tweaking for balance and consistency. Every army i have used in 2019 is between 9750 and 10100. So expect minor adjustments and nothing more. If you use a big bow army you will probably get a few more of them in 2020, which combined with Prompting through Fire being a bit more difficult should make a big bow army a bit more viable. But it will not be much - my Skythians gained 4 bases in total. Its all quite mild adjustment.
S
Love the changes to chariots AWESOME
Nice hearing what changes are in the pipe.
Just it is a pity we didn't took advantage of britcon with players from all around to exchange a bit onto it.
Well noted for the English longbowmen
I believe the mêlée expert will be limited a some bases within a group (as per the NKE list where you can upgrade just 2 base of the spearmen to M/E).
Am I right?
For the biblical well we will have to check the impact of the change on battle chariots (it got some natural factors on impact and melee)
The Sumerians will get some race 4 wheels chariots with donkeys running at 5 BW?
So for 2020 we have
- rules update
- budget update (since there are change on bow and battle chariots being erased)
- change on the army lists.
This makes a lot.
Let's face it :We better market it carefully if we don't want to loose a significant number of players that are tired of the changes...
Feigned Flight. Norman's Please.
Quote from: Robin on August 12, 2019, 10:21:46 PM
Feigned Flight. Norman's Please.
If there are no uneven feign flight will be the last option against the infantry...
Will watch the chariot developments with great interest. Does making them all simply 'chariots' essentially turn them in to the current light chariots but with more upgrades? If so, given the potential loss of their base combat factors, it is hard to see this making them better. Will depend on how the whole package shakes out though. I find battle chariots pretty solid under the current rules.
Anything that might have an impact on the current prevalence of 'hordes'?
Martin
Quote from: Rino on August 12, 2019, 10:08:30 PM
For the biblical well we will have to check the impact of the change on battle chariots (it got some natural factors on impact and melee)
The Sumerians will get some race 4 wheels chariots with donkeys running at 5 BW?
The plan is for early Battle Carts to be Close order chariots (they will move at 4BW in open, same as other Close Cv/Cm) - so no they won't race around like Egyptian New Kingdom chariots.
Richard
Quote from: Rino on August 12, 2019, 10:08:30 PM
Well noted for the English longbowmen
I believe the mêlée expert will be limited a some bases within a group (as per the NKE list where you can upgrade just 2 base of the spearmen to M/E).
Am I right?
The implementation is yet to be decided - that will come when Richard goes through the lists, there are options to consider.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 13, 2019, 07:24:27 AM
Quote from: Rino on August 12, 2019, 10:08:30 PM
Well noted for the English longbowmen
I believe the mêlée expert will be limited a some bases within a group (as per the NKE list where you can upgrade just 2 base of the spearmen to M/E).
Am I right?
The implementation is yet to be decided - that will come when Richard goes through the lists, there are options to consider.
We are considering treating Longbowmen reinforced by men-at-arms as 1/2 melee expert (essentially giving a front rank) and making the TuGs 6's or 8's. This stops enemy shooters picking on the one men-at-arms base in a TuG of 7. It also avoids the issue of a close order base mixed in with Longbowmen.
The concern is the ability to distinguish the M/E bases, but I don't believe that is insurmountable. I used an Eastern Seljuk Turk army and distinguished both the allied/non-allied and skilled/experienced shooters by putting small coloured labels on the bottom of (underneath) the bases.
Richard
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 12, 2019, 04:58:38 PM
Single base additions to TuGs revised
These do not work in practice so we are removing them and finding another way
1. English Longbows will be given a ME option to represent a high % of MAA intermingled.
2. Chinese types revert to simply two different ranks of troops.
Nikeforian menavltoi are another FWIW.
Might be useful if people could flag lists with similar single base additions. Think we have them all, but with so many lists ...
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 12, 2019, 10:37:25 PM
Will watch the chariot developments with great interest. Does making them all simply 'chariots' essentially turn them in to the current light chariots but with more upgrades? If so, given the potential loss of their base combat factors, it is hard to see this making them better. Will depend on how the whole package shakes out though. I find battle chariots pretty solid under the current rules.
Anything that might have an impact on the current prevalence of 'hordes'?
Martin
Except they were mainly mobile shooting platforms and the heavier ones become good at that to compensate. So soften up and then charge. In ise I think this will be a big better. Plus controllable.
Quote from: Rino on August 12, 2019, 10:08:30 PM
Nice hearing what changes are in the pipe.
Just it is a pity we didn't took advantage of britcon with players from all around to exchange a bit onto it.
Well noted for the English longbowmen
I believe the mêlée expert will be limited a some bases within a group (as per the NKE list where you can upgrade just 2 base of the spearmen to M/E).
Am I right?
For the biblical well we will have to check the impact of the change on battle chariots (it got some natural factors on impact and melee)
The Sumerians will get some race 4 wheels chariots with donkeys running at 5 BW?
So for 2020 we have
- rules update
- budget update (since there are change on bow and battle chariots being erased)
- change on the army lists.
This makes a lot.
Let's face it :We better market it carefully if we don't want to loose a significant number of players that are tired of the changes...
Interesting you think its a lot. The only thing that changes materially is chariots. Seems very little change to me.
However if you call it: rules update, budget update, change to army lists you will make it sound like a lot because it doesn't qualify how much change. So indeed it is a lot in how you say it. It will be important for all of you as players to emphasise that it is small changes only and not to make it seem radical when it isn't. So really its a matter of not marketing it badly.
So if you find any rumours of big changes be sure to squash them and alert me. We do need to be careful not to let any such rumours starts. And the rules are then fixed for 5+ years in a solid book.
S
HYW Longbow as melee expert does make them a bit damn good (ie better than vikings in melee). If we are happy with this...just make them all melee expert
Half and half makes them more complicated than the extra base of 2HC (keeping track of who is who can be a bit of a 'mare)
other similars
NKE axemen
lutat macemen
Slight reduction in cost for Skilled shooter would be good - very costly at present and not always cost effect. If using Skilled need more than one unit, which severely reduces TUGs. Feels that those horsey-shooty armies that rely/had quantity of Skilled often too small to really get balanced game. Not much ... but a little more would be good ......
Quote from: IanN on August 13, 2019, 07:39:27 PM
Slight reduction in cost for Skilled shooter would be good - very costly at present and not always cost effect. If using Skilled need more than one unit, which severely reduces TUGs. Feels that those horsey-shooty armies that rely/had quantity of Skilled often too small to really get balanced game. Not much ... but a little more would be good ......
I'd point out that its really isn't difficult to get more than 1 unit of skilled currently. However, ...
The cost of bows is coming down, therefore, Shooty cavalry armies have some extra points to spend in 2020.
The points decrease for bows automatically brings the cost of skilled shooter down as it is a multiplier.
As a notorious lover of shooty cav armies, I am delighted by these changes.
Japanese
These lists will be adjusted for evolution from single bamboo to triple Yumi
1. PBw to cut in later than currently
2. Heian period to be average-Bw, Kamakura Skilled-bow, Skilled-Pbw thereafter
Agree with this, apart from it's not the bamboo that changes wood core from single piece of wood, to wood and bamboo in blocks/layers, this happened c1300. so early Kamakura list would have Bw, and Later Pbw, in the middle a mix, but I understand this may be hard to do.
Kamakura list goes to 1334 CE - so if we're talking c. 1300 CE that isn't so far off.
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 13, 2019, 07:00:25 PM
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 12, 2019, 10:37:25 PM
Will watch the chariot developments with great interest. Does making them all simply 'chariots' essentially turn them in to the current light chariots but with more upgrades? If so, given the potential loss of their base combat factors, it is hard to see this making them better. Will depend on how the whole package shakes out though. I find battle chariots pretty solid under the current rules.
Anything that might have an impact on the current prevalence of 'hordes'?
Martin
Except they were mainly mobile shooting platforms and the heavier ones become good at that to compensate. So soften up and then charge. In ise I think this will be a big better. Plus controllable.
They are already shooting platforms and very controllable (as long as they have a shooting weapon). These are not gains unless they are becoming better shooters somehow (more skilled?). Devastating charger is not as good as the base factors they already get. It sounds like they are all becoming light chariots but with some more capabilities. More historical? Possibly. Better? hard to see how.
Martin
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 13, 2019, 09:07:59 PM
Kamakura list goes to 1334 CE - so if we're talking c. 1300 CE that isn't so far off.
So Kamakura should be Skilled Be, not Skilled Pbw, since the change in Yumi design was 1300-1400CE
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 13, 2019, 08:03:16 AM
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 12, 2019, 04:58:38 PM
Single base additions to TuGs revised
These do not work in practice so we are removing them and finding another way
1. English Longbows will be given a ME option to represent a high % of MAA intermingled.
2. Chinese types revert to simply two different ranks of troops.
Nikeforian menavltoi are another FWIW.
Might be useful if people could flag lists with similar single base additions. Think we have them all, but with so many lists ...
Viking berserkers?
Quote from: LeslieIan on August 13, 2019, 11:11:15 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 13, 2019, 09:07:59 PM
Kamakura list goes to 1334 CE - so if we're talking c. 1300 CE that isn't so far off.
So Kamakura should be Skilled Be, not Skilled Pbw, since the change in Yumi design was 1300-1400CE
Which is what Si is suggesting I believe.
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PM
They are already shooting platforms and very controllable (as long as they have a shooting weapon). These are not gains unless they are becoming better shooters somehow (more skilled?). Devastating charger is not as good as the base factors they already get. It sounds like they are all becoming light chariots but with some more capabilities. More historical? Possibly. Better? hard to see how.
Martin
More historical, yes - which is better for a game based in history. Means that they will have to be used differently, as speedy mobile shooters primarily, combat troops a more secondary role.
Perhaps, but can they afford to take such a big hit from a balance POV? Our tabletops aren't exactly clogged with chariot armies as it is. I also dislike been told a change is making something better when it is pretty clearly not. Just say "hey chariot players, assume the position....' :o
Martin
Happy with most changes.
Legionnaires still to expensive IMO. Why not allow them to be close order. Option to buy Flex. Auxlia would have done the rough donkey work.
Why no unprotected in charge combat phase ?
Not particularly happy re no uneven ground (cavalry friendly) as just spent £160 on new terrain on sunday at Britcon.
Army lists. Still a bit surprised at lack of compulsory troop types, which in my opinion allows players to make super armies out of armies that historically did little.
Tibetan exorcist is the other single stand oddity
We can leave that one in for the masochistic its such a bad option :o ;D
Quote from: Robin on August 14, 2019, 07:28:45 AM
Happy with most changes.
Legionnaires still to expensive IMO. Why not allow them to be close order. Option to buy Flex. Auxlia would have done the rough donkey work.
Cost cropped up in some of our discussions and Close instead of Flexible doesn't save enough points to really affect army composition as the difference is very small. IMO you can currently get perfectly viable Roman armies onto the table.
Auxilia didn't do the terrain donkey work - a trawl through Tacitus shows the legionarii doing their share, and in one battle they go fight in the woods whilst the auxilia hold the open ground IIRC.
Main issue with legionarii is shield cover 'tax'. ;)
Again cheap. For Average its 5 pts a base (2020) as is the difference between Close and Flexible.
Now in a way legionarii are hit twice by small additions, but even both together doesn't add up to a massive amount. When I looked at my Roman lists it'd get me an extra basic unit, however, I'd want to keep Flexible as I've found that to be useful so losing Shield Cover wouldn't really give much that'd be useful for my lists (YMMV and it may be useful depending on how you do your Romans).
FWIW I have found Shield Cover to be useful in a few games, and now that we know you can prompt through it I suspect it is more useful.
Fair enough
Just been looking at a Britcon list.
Perhaps it's just me. I would have thought the main army might have an Ally. Or a couple of internal allies. I never considered you could take basically 2 allies just because the dates cross. If they fought historically then fine but if not then sounds like a bit of a flaw. So you could also have the main army with smaller contingents than the allied contingents. Been playing for neay two years and never crossed my tiny brain cell. Just my opinion.
Quote from: Robin on August 14, 2019, 01:54:03 PM
Just been looking at a Britcon list.
Perhaps it's just me. I would have thought the main army might have an Ally. Or a couple of internal allies. I never considered you could take basically 2 allies just because the dates cross. If they fought historically then fine but if not then sounds like a bit of a flaw. So you could also have the main army with smaller contingents than the allied contingents. Been playing for neay two years and never crossed my tiny brain cell. Just my opinion.
Whilst there certainly are cases where that happened, you are probably right that the lists are too relaxed about allowing multiple allies.
It's the same as Flames of War v4 as long as it's in the time frame it doesn't matter what sector it fought in, such as Panthers or Ferdinands in the desert. I have been picked up because of in my opinion badly worded explanations in lists. But allies that did not fight together :-\
Quote from: Robin on August 14, 2019, 01:54:03 PM
Just been looking at a Britcon list.
Perhaps it's just me. I would have thought the main army might have an Ally. Or a couple of internal allies. I never considered you could take basically 2 allies just because the dates cross. If they fought historically then fine but if not then sounds like a bit of a flaw. So you could also have the main army with smaller contingents than the allied contingents. Been playing for neay two years and never crossed my tiny brain cell. Just my opinion.
I do not know if it was my list you were looking at but certainly two allies were included. Mind you I think every Feudal German and Frisian army at Britcon also had two allies as they did at a Skulls.
I would not be unhappy to see some restrictions brought in. Honest soul that I am.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 13, 2019, 07:49:00 PM
I'd point out that its really isn't difficult to get more than 1 unit of skilled currently. However, ...
The cost of bows is coming down, therefore, Shooty cavalry armies have some extra points to spend in 2020.
The points decrease for bows automatically brings the cost of skilled shooter down as it is a multiplier.
Aware of that Nik - point being that several Skilled are required and that does get expensive and reduces army size/unit size considerably so upgraded army badly outnumbered. As sad ... a small reduction would be good
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 14, 2019, 06:32:31 AM
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PM
They are already shooting platforms and very controllable (as long as they have a shooting weapon). These are not gains unless they are becoming better shooters somehow (more skilled?). Devastating charger is not as good as the base factors they already get. It sounds like they are all becoming light chariots but with some more capabilities. More historical? Possibly. Better? hard to see how.
Martin
More historical, yes - which is better for a game based in history. Means that they will have to be used differently, as speedy mobile shooters primarily, combat troops a more secondary role.
So Indian chariots are now speedy skirmishers that move as fast as a Mongol on a horse? :o
Depends on how the actual classification comes out in the wash. Note Richard's comment on Sumerian donkey carts for example on rating some as Close formation to keep movement down.
I'm not really sure why there was a need for a change with chariots. After 3 years of tweaking they seemed to work well and be a bit distinctive.
Seems like yet another change when the rules are supposed to be almost finished.
What was the problem that needed to be fixed? Endless tinkering is really off-putting. (Not directed at you just a general gripe) It will mean more list changes... this is supposed to be the final edition for 5 years and now a whole new classification system for chariots is brought in? Seems crazy.
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PM
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 13, 2019, 07:00:25 PM
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 12, 2019, 10:37:25 PM
Will watch the chariot developments with great interest. Does making them all simply 'chariots' essentially turn them in to the current light chariots but with more upgrades? If so, given the potential loss of their base combat factors, it is hard to see this making them better. Will depend on how the whole package shakes out though. I find battle chariots pretty solid under the current rules.
Anything that might have an impact on the current prevalence of 'hordes'?
Martin
Except they were mainly mobile shooting platforms and the heavier ones become good at that to compensate. So soften up and then charge. In ise I think this will be a big better. Plus controllable.
They are already shooting platforms and very controllable (as long as they have a shooting weapon). These are not gains unless they are becoming better shooters somehow (more skilled?). Devastating charger is not as good as the base factors they already get. It sounds like they are all becoming light chariots but with some more capabilities. More historical? Possibly. Better? hard to see how.
Martin
You may be right. But I find the Battlechariots are more of a liability today. Not as good as most cavalry types but hard to control. So my limited testing so far is that I prefer it as they can =now move 5 and evade. this is what makes them decent missile platforms as they can get more shots in before charging. Give it a try. Felt a net + to me.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 14, 2019, 09:17:13 AM
Again cheap. For Average its 5 pts a base (2020) as is the difference between Close and Flexible.
Now in a way legionarii are hit twice by small additions, but even both together doesn't add up to a massive amount. When I looked at my Roman lists it'd get me an extra basic unit, however, I'd want to keep Flexible as I've found that to be useful so losing Shield Cover wouldn't really give much that'd be useful for my lists (YMMV and it may be useful depending on how you do your Romans).
FWIW I have found Shield Cover to be useful in a few games, and now that we know you can prompt through it I suspect it is more useful.
I don't think either flexible or shield cover are takes. They are really great cheap alternatives. Romans are at their best when they set up a terrain where they can take advantage of it a bit. But even if they can't its 5pts a base for flexibles so not a heavy tax. So basically take them to a tax free environment .... I increasingly place terrain as Romans against something I can't crush frontally easily.
S
Quote from: craig.w on August 14, 2019, 03:40:37 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 14, 2019, 06:32:31 AM
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PM
They are already shooting platforms and very controllable (as long as they have a shooting weapon). These are not gains unless they are becoming better shooters somehow (more skilled?). Devastating charger is not as good as the base factors they already get. It sounds like they are all becoming light chariots but with some more capabilities. More historical? Possibly. Better? hard to see how.
Martin
More historical, yes - which is better for a game based in history. Means that they will have to be used differently, as speedy mobile shooters primarily, combat troops a more secondary role.
So Indian chariots are now speedy skirmishers that move as fast as a Mongol on a horse? :o
Yes indeed. But they don't shoot or manoeuvre as freely of course.
Quote from: craig.w on August 14, 2019, 03:52:20 PM
I'm not really sure why there was a need for a change with chariots. After 3 years of tweaking they seemed to work well and be a bit distinctive.
Seems like yet another change when the rules are supposed to be almost finished.
What was the problem that needed to be fixed? Endless tinkering is really off-putting. (Not directed at you just a general gripe) It will mean more list changes... this is supposed to be the final edition for 5 years and now a whole new classification system for chariots is brought in? Seems crazy.
Exactly the reason for posting things early to see the reaction. So happy to hear counsel and thoughts ...
This is the one big discovery of the last year. Looking at the new historical evidence - there was a great talk last year the at the SoA - it seem Mortem et Gloriam was the only set that represented Light Chariots well. But it was also clear that a BattleChariot as a charging bulldozer never existed. Even the larger ones were designed to give bigger shooting platforms and crew for melee if needed.
So that is a bit inconvenient timing as either:
a) we don't change it and are stuck for 5 years with unrealistic chariot period
b) we fix it now so its set for 5 years
No perfect answer but I erred towards progressive given what we now know. I rather like the SoA saying Mortem et Gloriam is the only set to get chariots right....
But keep the feedback coming as not locked in print yet. That happens end of October.
S
@ Simon re Chariots; what you say about chariot scholarship is true...for now. Opinions on this seem to change every few years. People who don't think that 'heavy' chariots as impact weapons really existed will disapprove, but those of the old school will now have either useless lead of very different armies. These opinions seem to change every few years. It seems to me that anyone who claims to be certain about how chariots fought is really, really optimistic. I don't think that we really do know. Is the use of 4 horses backed up by a cart full of fighters charging home harder to believe than one horse with a rider armed with a lance? If chariots were simply transport for rich archers, why stay inside it to fight? Why not dismount to shoot?
I do not pretend to know any of these answers. I just think we should stay open to all possibilities and not foreclose any plausible explanation for how these thing fought.
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 14, 2019, 04:13:44 PM
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PM
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 13, 2019, 07:00:25 PM
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 12, 2019, 10:37:25 PM
Will watch the chariot developments with great interest. Does making them all simply 'chariots' essentially turn them in to the current light chariots but with more upgrades? If so, given the potential loss of their base combat factors, it is hard to see this making them better. Will depend on how the whole package shakes out though. I find battle chariots pretty solid under the current rules.
Anything that might have an impact on the current prevalence of 'hordes'?
Martin
Except they were mainly mobile shooting platforms and the heavier ones become good at that to compensate. So soften up and then charge. In ise I think this will be a big better. Plus controllable.
They are already shooting platforms and very controllable (as long as they have a shooting weapon). These are not gains unless they are becoming better shooters somehow (more skilled?). Devastating charger is not as good as the base factors they already get. It sounds like they are all becoming light chariots but with some more capabilities. More historical? Possibly. Better? hard to see how.
Martin
You may be right. But I find the Battlechariots are more of a liability today. Not as good as most cavalry types but hard to control. So my limited testing so far is that I prefer it as they can =now move 5 and evade. this is what makes them decent missile platforms as they can get more shots in before charging. Give it a try. Felt a net + to me.
I don't find them a liability currently and the ones that have devastating charger (I imagine a lot of the former 4 horse battle chariots) will be a much bigger liability than they are under the current rules. They still wont be able to evade but will be much worse in the fight they can't avoid. Will devastating charger be free for chariots? You are probably making a chariot worse overall by taking it! It is even worse when you consider chariots are often a part of armies that need a serious shock arm to keep their (generally appalling) infantry alive. This new iteration of chariots will not be able to perform that role.
I suspect this will be a further reduction in the, already pretty limited, appearances of chariots in open comp.
Martin
Quote from: DracoStandard on August 13, 2019, 07:15:26 PM
HYW Longbow as melee expert does make them a bit damn good (ie better than vikings in melee). If we are happy with this...just make them all melee expert
Half and half makes them more complicated than the extra base of 2HC (keeping track of who is who can be a bit of a 'mare)
other similars
NKE axemen
lutat macemen
IMO, to make them all ME is creating a very strongh unit that can beat most of the ennemies they will face. They are LB, not roman legionaries . Half is good ( even too much ) .
Quote from: DracoStandard on August 13, 2019, 07:15:26 PM
HYW Longbow as melee expert does make them a bit damn good (ie better than vikings in melee). If we are happy with this...just make them all melee expert
Primarily the grading must be looked at in relation to their historic opponents (as RJC has said before), secondary is out of period for game wide implications.
QuoteHalf and half makes them more complicated than the extra base of 2HC (keeping track of who is who can be a bit of a 'mare)
IMO it shouldn't be too difficult, however, after last weekend watching Hunter get confused about his Danish dwarfs this may be a bigger issue that I had previously considered :o
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 15, 2019, 12:21:46 PM
Quote from: DracoStandard on August 13, 2019, 07:15:26 PM
HYW Longbow as melee expert does make them a bit damn good (ie better than vikings in melee). If we are happy with this...just make them all melee expert
Primarily the grading must be looked at in relation to their historic opponents (as RJC has said before), secondary is out of period for game wide implications.
QuoteHalf and half makes them more complicated than the extra base of 2HC (keeping track of who is who can be a bit of a 'mare)
IMO it shouldn't be too difficult, however, after last weekend watching Hunter get confused about his Danish dwarfs this may be a bigger issue that I had previously considered :o
Is Hunter a typical example though?
I think we all know the answer to that 8)
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 15, 2019, 03:19:47 PM
I think we all know the answer to that 8)
There is no truth to the rumour that Hunter had a Dwarf general called Dildo Baggins.
Maybe Duncan Head's Armies of the Macedonian and Punic wars is out of date now, but his quote of the functions of Indian chariots does not at all sound like fast skirmishers "...reuniting broken ranks, breaking up unbroken ranks, causing terror, showing magnificence and making a frightful din, these are the functions of chariots." P.54
For that matter, the description of Indian foot doesn't sound like loose foot either.
"Without thorns, not very uneven, with room for retreat, this is excellent ground for infantrymen."
As no competitions in December could the rule changes and or points changes not be made in December instead of January 1st to allow for us to fiddle and faff before the January competitions start ?
Quote from: Robin on August 16, 2019, 08:16:33 AM
As no competitions in December could the rule changes and or points changes not be made in December instead of January 1st to allow for us to fiddle and faff before the January competitions start ?
Robin, that sounds very sensible for the UK. Not sure if competitions in December elsewhere in the world although they could switch from January if that is the case.
Quote from: craig.w on August 15, 2019, 04:45:40 PM
Maybe Duncan Head's Armies of the Macedonian and Punic wars is out of date now, but his quote of the functions of Indian chariots does not at all sound like fast skirmishers "...reuniting broken ranks, breaking up unbroken ranks, causing terror, showing magnificence and making a frightful din, these are the functions of chariots." P.54
For that matter, the description of Indian foot doesn't sound like loose foot either.
"Without thorns, not very uneven, with room for retreat, this is excellent ground for infantrymen."
Definitely out of date by a decade on the Chariots. Although they are not skirmishers as proposed. They are Loose order shooters. So all the above still works for me on the new definition. They would all of that.
A fair debate as to whether the spearmen could be close. We get this interesting conundrum of players wanting minimum change ... while suggesting lots of changes. Its a challenge for sure.
Looks like I will be bring Classical Indian to Aus in October ....
Si
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on August 14, 2019, 04:17:02 PM
Quote from: craig.w on August 14, 2019, 03:40:37 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 14, 2019, 06:32:31 AM
Quote from: martymagnificent on August 13, 2019, 10:50:28 PM
They are already shooting platforms and very controllable (as long as they have a shooting weapon). These are not gains unless they are becoming better shooters somehow (more skilled?). Devastating charger is not as good as the base factors they already get. It sounds like they are all becoming light chariots but with some more capabilities. More historical? Possibly. Better? hard to see how.
Martin
this will be a + for chariots with bow or javelin.
what about the chariots who only had close combat weapons like the long spear?
these will lose the battle chariot bonus they now have.
i also have a problem with the heavy chariots with bow that will be as good as cav. how to make the difference between chariots and the more modern cav that succeeded the chariots in a shooting context?
iho the chariots should not be as fast and as flexible as cav.
More historical, yes - which is better for a game based in history. Means that they will have to be used differently, as speedy mobile shooters primarily, combat troops a more secondary role.
So Indian chariots are now speedy skirmishers that move as fast as a Mongol on a horse? :o
Yes indeed. But they don't shoot or manoeuvre as freely of course.
Quote from: marshalney2000 on August 16, 2019, 10:12:35 AM
Quote from: Robin on August 16, 2019, 08:16:33 AM
As no competitions in December could the rule changes and or points changes not be made in December instead of January 1st to allow for us to fiddle and faff before the January competitions start ?
Robin, that sounds very sensible for the UK. Not sure if competitions in December elsewhere in the world although they could switch from January if that is the case.
BRUSSELS IWC2020 JANUARY 2020
We would appreciate all changes beginning december 8)
If the changes were published in December at least the January competitions organisers have an easier choice.
Also by the way, no more new lists, changes in lists for at least 2 years after 2020 would be appreciated
Quote from: badhabum on August 20, 2019, 07:36:39 PM
Also by the way, no more new lists, changes in lists for at least 2 years after 2020 would be appreciated
I think we have largely run out of ideas anyway Jacques.
On rules, lists and points I set out to see if we could optimise with player input.
We can, we have, we done!
Anyone good enough at latin to do that as our own Veni Vini Vici?
S
No power on Earth or in Heaven can prevent Nic Gaukroger from putting out new lists. Resistance is futile!
I'm slowing down though :P
Have you done a Borg list!
Quote from: mad lemmey on August 21, 2019, 07:31:00 PM
Have you done a Borg list!
Tennis player catapults ... oooh
Quote from: LeslieIan on August 13, 2019, 09:05:09 PM
Japanese
These lists will be adjusted for evolution from single bamboo to triple Yumi
1. PBw to cut in later than currently
2. Heian period to be average-Bw, Kamakura Skilled-bow, Skilled-Pbw thereafter
Agree with this, apart from it's not the bamboo that changes wood core from single piece of wood, to wood and bamboo in blocks/layers, this happened c1300. so early Kamakura list would have Bw, and Later Pbw, in the middle a mix, but I understand this may be hard to do.
Thanks Leslie. Handy to have a date.
S
Quote from: mad lemmey on August 14, 2019, 08:23:14 AM
Tibetan exorcist is the other single stand oddity
Aztecs too I think.
S
About the lists :
Combat shy loose/close.
Often these are poor too.
i can understand that a list maker wants include poor troops or even combat shy troops.
But the combination of both makes them total crap and quite useless.
Why not leave the combat shy as an option if the troops are poor?
that will strengthen some armies or army options.
I dont get the driver for all these changes.
Chariots arent game breaking. BCh seemed to now be decent (but not dominating) finally. Now being changed.
Light chariots are a bit meh.
If anything I expected Chariots to get a bump.
This pursuit of a few people's ideal of perfection is risking a great game.
Change knights back to 4, will solve some of the issues. And that will make the ArmHrs upgrade actually an upgrade/benefit.
Im ok with the shooting changes if its deemed necessary. I would love for it to be extensively tested first. Not a couple of mates doing a couple of games. (Indeed, apply that to all changes -- this round seems rushed).
I am not a fan of 4 pieces of 'magic terrain' on the table but I don't know that I'd get rid of the only safe space for cav. Longspear foot will be the ducks nuts in 2020 with the changes? Maybe retain but restrict it? ie: only 1 piece in the Optional phase is allowed?? The open terrain thing is cool, especially if magic terrain not avail in the Compulsory phase, so cav armies have something to place, but its not like terrain is dominating tables -- it's already skewed toward more open tables.
Im sure there is more. Im just throwing some stuff down. I am enjoying MeG. Yes, it could be better. But damn it sure could be a lot worse and the risk vs reward of this demands very thorough playtesting and consideration by the author (who I encourage to put aside any mates opinions at the end of the day that may be over weighted in influence).
Thank you Dru.
I get the sentiment.
Will be suitably careful.
Things are getting tested quite a bit behind the scenes anyway.
Si
Great weekend play testing the 2020 changes. Everything worked well. I was worried about prompting through fire but it only took a small mindset change.
Perhaps a proof read by non native english speaking players might be good too.
As we might interpret things differently, and might bring up some needed claries.
As we did in the V1
Can certainly have a couple of volunteers for different languages to take a look.
S
Punch is really good at this i think...
Hoping Punch will be Ambassador for France and Jacques for Belgium.
S
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on September 20, 2019, 01:33:16 PM
Hoping Punch will be Ambassador for France
S
With his Catalan company his motto will become then deseperate Ferrero
An we have just released out AMulghavars too...
S
OK I will read it