I just want to confirm that units which have shoot and charge do their shooting before any movement. This means that a lot of the time javelin armed troops won't be able to use this as (we have often found) they will be out of range initially. Is that correct and what was intended?
Thanks
Jimmy
Yes. You shoot immediately the charge is declared. If your UG is armed with javelins, make sure you are at 2BW before you charge.
Richard
Thanks
And to be clear, Shoot and Charge also counts if you are being charged, so firing would be at the initial range (starting distance between units), not at one base width if they were standing to receive? If that's the case Charge Only troops can never make the choice to fire at in-coming chargers (and suffer the potential claim against non-charging cavalry etc who shot)?
Thanks
Quote from: Wizard of Oz on March 15, 2023, 10:23:24 PM
And to be clear, Shoot and Charge also counts if you are being charged, so firing would be at the initial range (starting distance between units), not at one base width if they were standing to receive? If that's the case Charge Only troops can never make the choice to fire at in-coming chargers (and suffer the potential claim against non-charging cavalry etc who shot)?
Thanks
No, troops standing to receive always shoot after all charges have been declared. This includes Shoot & Charge and Charge Only troops. This has been clarified.
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on March 16, 2023, 07:10:36 AM
No, troops standing to receive always shoot after all charges have been declared. This includes Shoot & Charge and Charge Only troops. This has been clarified.
Richard
AFAIK charge only shooters could shoot only by declaring a charge (i.e. as a shoot and charge).
Other shooty troops that happen to have shoot and charge can shoot when they stand to receive, but I think this wouldn't be a "shoot and charge" shot, so would be at 1 BW range and give a -1 for mounted troops in charge combat.
Where is the clarification?
Quote from: LawrenceG on March 16, 2023, 11:54:19 AM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on March 16, 2023, 07:10:36 AM
No, troops standing to receive always shoot after all charges have been declared. This includes Shoot & Charge and Charge Only troops. This has been clarified.
Richard
AFAIK charge only shooters could shoot only by declaring a charge (i.e. as a shoot and charge).
Other shooty troops that happen to have shoot and charge can shoot when they stand to receive, but I think this wouldn't be a "shoot and charge" shot, so would be at 1 BW range and give a -1 for mounted troops in charge combat.
Where is the clarification?
No - you have this rule wrong (you did in the comments you sent through).
We are still resolving the technical issues with releasing the modified PDF edition to everyone who has the old PDF edition (don't you just hate technology companies that lie!).
Richard
Quote from: LawrenceG on March 16, 2023, 11:54:19 AM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on March 16, 2023, 07:10:36 AM
No, troops standing to receive always shoot after all charges have been declared. This includes Shoot & Charge and Charge Only troops. This has been clarified.
Richard
AFAIK charge only shooters could shoot only by declaring a charge (i.e. as a shoot and charge).
Other shooty troops that happen to have shoot and charge can shoot when they stand to receive, but I think this wouldn't be a "shoot and charge" shot, so would be at 1 BW range and give a -1 for mounted troops in charge combat.
Where is the clarification?
See PDF pg 125
L: SHOOT AND CHARGE (inc. charge-only shooters)
Shoot & charge covers troops who were adept at firing a volley and following it with a charge to
take immediate advantage of the effect of their shooting. The charge was still their primary fighting
method, but with a softening up effect immediately beforehand. Byzantines and Aztecs both operated
this way.
1. Troops must start within shooting range and arc from targets to use shoot & charge. The
shooting target must also be a charge target.
2. The UG shoots immediately from its current position and range when it declares a charge.
3. Generals within 2BW may prompt through fire to recover any slowing effect caused by shoot
& charge.
4. Shoot & charge cannot be used with a countercharge or intercept, which we deem to be a
hurried response not allowing the time for their normal prepared charge to be carried out.
5. Shoot & charge is an automatic characteristic (free) for troops who have charge-only shooting.
6. Files of charge-only shooters only shoot when charged or charging. All such bases shoot as
experienced shooters.
Thanks.
APP1.L.6 somehow failed to register in my memory.
I see now it is also at 7.A.1.4
Is it allowed to intercept or countercharge and shoot afterwards (at SP2.5, so not a "shoot and charge")? I haven't found anything to prevent it.
Interesting that I don't recall the question ever being asked before.
And I believe the answer is no they cannot. I believe this is covered, albeit indirectly, in 5 L 1.3 - but no doubt something could usefully be added if this is not felt to be enough.
Quote from: LawrenceG on March 16, 2023, 11:54:19 AM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on March 16, 2023, 07:10:36 AM
No, troops standing to receive always shoot after all charges have been declared. This includes Shoot & Charge and Charge Only troops. This has been clarified.
Richard
AFAIK charge only shooters could shoot only by declaring a charge (i.e. as a shoot and charge).
Other shooty troops that happen to have shoot and charge can shoot when they stand to receive, but I think this wouldn't be a "shoot and charge" shot, so would be at 1 BW range and give a -1 for mounted troops in charge combat.
Where is the clarification?
its appears in the current (ie original) rules PDF p92 A: Types of shooters '1.4. Charge-Only Shooters: only shoot when charged or charging. All such bases shoot as
experienced shooters'
Quote from: nikgaukroger on March 16, 2023, 02:24:10 PM
Interesting that I don't recall the question ever being asked before.
And I believe the answer is no they cannot. I believe this is covered, albeit indirectly, in 5 L 1.3 - but no doubt something could usefully be added if this is not felt to be enough.
A bit of a stretch as the option to intercept or countercharge is not mentioned at all when it clearly exists (or is 5.L.1.3 intended to prevent missile focussed TuGs from countercharging?).
7.C.4 explicitly prevents them from shooting in the shooting phase, but 7.B is silent on the charge phase, as is 5.M. A possible line of reasoning is that if it needs explicitly prohibiting in 7.C.4 then where it is not explicitly banned it must be permitted.
Also I can't find anything preventing a SuG from intercepting a charge, shooting and then doing an evade response. Even if they can't shoot, could they do this to limit the ability of the charger to wheel?
I agree it is probably intended that they can't shoot and I think it would be worth clarifying (e.g. by copying the relevant text from 7.C.4 to 7.B and/or 5.M) next time there is an update.
Hello all, I can not make heads or tails out of this, I do not have the new you-beaut PDF or whatever the anacronym is, all I have is the hard copy rule book. In that, it says on page 207;
1. Troops must start within shooting range from targets to use shoot and charge.
2. The UG shoots immediately from its current position and range when they declare a charge.
BUT, as appears in the contribution from Mr badhabum there is a point 6. which says;
6. Files of charge-only shooters only shoot when charged or charging. All such bases shoot as
experienced shooters.
Therefore;
Do Charge Only Shooters get to shoot if they do not charge but are the objects of a charge?
If yes, is this at a range of one(1) base width, or, is it only available if the charge has its origins within three (3) base widths bow range (if armed with bows)?
If yes, they can shoot', are they subject to the opponent gaining the General Claim 'vs. non-charging Cv, Cm, or Ch who shot'?
Is this the same for Shoot and Charge units?
I am sorry if I come across as thicker than two short planks but I would like a clear answer please. Any missile armed units seem to be able to fire at chargers coming in if they suffer the General Claim so if Charge Only also do, what is the point?
Thanks in advance
Sorry for your confusion.
Yes charge only shooters in files that are charged get to shoot as experienced shooters. The range is taken to be 1BW and they shoot at the point in the charge phase when other units being charged would shoot.
If they are not the target of a charge then they do not shoot.
They do not shoot if they intercept or counter-charge (as they don't have time to).
Yes, the opponent would get a +1 for non-charging Cv, Cm, Ch who shot (note that they do not have to shoot).
Shoot and Charge UGs are similar, but can also shoot in the shooting phase.
Charge-only UGs never shoot in the shooting phase. They are troops who shoot only as part of their charge. Most of the time you want to get them to within shooting range of the enemy and then declare a charge. That way you get to shoot immediately (before your opponent) which can be useful to slow them down and catch them if they are trying to skirmish or run away.
Richard
In the charge phase:
Shoot and Charge and Charge Only can shoot when they declare a charge, at the range at the time. They are charging, so "non-charging mounted that shot" does not apply.
If not charging:
Skilled, Experienced and Unskilled can shoot if within 1 BW of the path of charge, at a range of 1 BW.
Charge Only can shoot only if the file is being charged, at a range of 1 BW.
In both cases, (if mounted) these would be non-charging mounted that shot.
In the shooting phase:
Charge Only cannot shoot.
Skilled, Experienced and Unskilled (with or without Shoot and Charge) can shoot.
Thank you both for your detailed and clear response.
QuoteYes charge only shooters in files that are charged get to shoot as experienced shooters. The range is taken to be 1BW and they shoot at the point in the charge phase when other units being charged would shoot.
may the file that has shoot and charge and that is next to the target
file shoot as well ?
I hope I am clear enough
The file has to be charged, not just the UG. So no.
Richard
Quote from: badhabum on May 08, 2023, 01:22:38 PM
may the file that has shoot and charge and that is next to the target file shoot as well ?
I hope I am clear enough
Precision of terminology is important here.
"Charge Only" can only shoot with a file that is being charged.
Missile focussed UGs with "Shoot and Charge" can shoot with any file within 1 BW of the path of charge.
Sorry, bit late to the party. So if you stand to receive a charge and are outside of the 2 HBW it is assumed you shoot at chargers when they reach the 2HBW range? So basically if you stand to receive a charge you are still use the shoot and charge option even if outside the 2HBW zone?
Quote from: skb777 on October 30, 2023, 10:11:29 PM
Sorry, bit late to the party. So if you stand to receive a charge and are outside of the 2 HBW it is assumed you shoot at chargers when they reach the 2HBW range? So basically if you stand to receive a charge you are still use the shoot and charge option even if outside the 2HBW zone?
If you stand to receive the charge, you are not using the shoot and charge option. Whether skilled, experienced, unskilled or "charge only", it is assumed you shoot at a range of 1 BW (= 2 HBW); it doesn't matter how far away the charge starts from. It does not matter whether you have "shoot and charge" or not, all shooters can do it.
The "shoot and charge" option is only for when you declare a charge, and you have to start the charge within shooting range to exercise that option. It's available to troops with "shoot and charge" characteristic or "charge only" in their "shooting skill" box.
Quote from: LawrenceG on October 30, 2023, 11:53:40 PM
Quote from: skb777 on October 30, 2023, 10:11:29 PM
Sorry, bit late to the party. So if you stand to receive a charge and are outside of the 2 HBW it is assumed you shoot at chargers when they reach the 2HBW range? So basically if you stand to receive a charge you are still use the shoot and charge option even if outside the 2HBW zone?
If you stand to receive the charge, you are not using the shoot and charge option. Whether skilled, experienced, unskilled or "charge only", it is assumed you shoot at a range of 1 BW (= 2 HBW); it doesn't matter how far away the charge starts from. It does not matter whether you have "shoot and charge" or not, all shooters can do it.
Righto, so if you stand to receive a charge you can still shoot even if the charge starts outside of the shooting range. You then receive a -1 penalty in the charge phase.
The "shoot and charge" option is only for when you declare a charge, and you have to start the charge within shooting range to exercise that option. It's available to troops with "shoot and charge" characteristic or "charge only" in their "shooting skill" box.
Quote from: skb777 on October 31, 2023, 12:22:30 AM
Righto, so if you stand to receive a charge you can still shoot even if the charge starts outside of the shooting range. You then receive a -1 penalty in the charge phase.
Yes.
Remember that the +1 claim for fighting enemy who shot at you in the charge phase only applies when (non-charging) Cv, Cm or Ch shot.
Yes, should have mentioned that was the particular scenario I had in mind. hanks all