The Tagmatic Cavalry are the regular troops and should be Drilled Loose.
The Thematic Cavalry are the farmers and should be Formed loose.
This was pointed out last year but i can not see it amended anywhere ?
They have been corrected in the Nikephorian list but not the Later Nikephorian list.
It was corrected in version 2020.03 - published 2nd May 2020. This is the version that is currently on the website.
I have just checked the 2021 lists as well and it is still correct.
Richard
Thanks Richard
i hadnt downloaded latest pdf.
Thanks again
Robin
Sorry, one last thing. The Tagmatic Cavalry have Mele Expert option in Nikephorian List but not Later Nikephorian list ? Is that an omission or intended ?
Quote from: lionheartrjc on January 31, 2021, 11:56:34 AM
It was corrected in version 2020.03 - published 2nd May 2020. This is the version that is currently on the website.
I have just checked the 2021 lists as well and it is still correct.
Richard
Good to know. Looking forward to check what changed in 2021 when the final version will be officialized.
Quote from: Rino on January 31, 2021, 03:24:49 PM
Good to know. Looking forward to check what changed in 2021 when the final version will be officialized.
I assume you've seen this - https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1616.0
Hi Nik, I did and I m hopeful that Simon get better !
Quote from: Robin on January 31, 2021, 12:41:04 PM
Sorry, one last thing. The Tagmatic Cavalry have Mele Expert option in Nikephorian List but not Later Nikephorian list ? Is that an omission or intended ?
I am also interested in the answer
In the 2021 lists, both have the option of Melee Expert. I am not sure why they were different in the 2020 lists.
Richard
Not that anyone queried it before Robin ???
Quote from: nikgaukroger on February 02, 2021, 07:00:16 PM
Not that anyone queried it before Robin ???
I thought it was to reflect a decline in quality towards the end of the period - clearly I was over-thinking justifications for things that were just omissions!
Quote from: daveparish on February 02, 2021, 07:39:29 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on February 02, 2021, 07:00:16 PM
Not that anyone queried it before Robin ???
I thought it was to reflect a decline in quality towards the end of the period - clearly I was over-thinking justifications for things that were just omissions!
Suspect that is what I thought when reviewing the lists previously as well ;D
But reduced numbers of Tagmata allowed probably better reflect that.
If Manzikert was 1071 then it would make sence that some would be Mele Expert until that date. Which means the later list should have the option as well as the early. But cant see that option in the latest pdf.
The later nikes tagmata definitly do not have the melee expert option ::) so what should it be ? ( before it all becomes official )
What Richard said above.
Quote from: Robin on February 02, 2021, 09:29:46 PM
If Manzikert was 1071 then it would make sence that some would be Mele Expert until that date. Which means the later list should have the option as well as the early. But cant see that option in the latest pdf.
There is a theory that Manzikert happened because the military was neglected and run down - because the Emperors and Empresses came from a court background rather than a military one. Sort of accidentally committed suicide - a bit like the theory about the Roman Empire that Nic references at the bottom of his posts. If that were true the cavalry should become less effective in some way in the years before Manzikert. (There is an alternative theory that Manzikert was just a gigantic cock-up that could have happened to the Nikephorians at any point)
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 02, 2021, 05:13:21 PM
In the 2021 lists, both have the option of Melee Expert. I am not sure why they were different in the 2020 lists.
Richard
Sorry but the later nikes tagmata do not have that options in 2020 V3
Quote from: badhabum on February 03, 2021, 12:48:40 PM
Quote from: lionheartrjc on February 02, 2021, 05:13:21 PM
In the 2021 lists, both have the option of Melee Expert. I am not sure why they were different in the 2020 lists.
Richard
Sorry but the later nikes tagmata do not have that options in 2020 V3
My understanding is the 2021 lists are not published yet. Simon Hall has been very unwell.
Dru
Quote from: Dru on February 04, 2021, 05:00:09 AM
My understanding is the 2021 lists are not published yet. Simon Hall has been very unwell.
Dru
This is correct. I remain hopeful that we can publish them this month.
Richard
My mistake, mixing years 2020 and 2021 ....; ;D
yep so both the Nikephorian Lists will have Mele Expert options when the new lists are published.
Re Manzikert. I have read up a bit but am far from up there with the experts. My opinion is it was a series of cock ups. As far as i am aware there were a large number of veteran battle hardened Tagmata units from the North West of Constantinople present. I liken it a little to some of the British disasters, Extremely hardened troops and non commissioned officers, led by incompetent commissioned officers. Whatever the result of Manzikert I think a Byzantine victory would only have delayed the inevitable. The split in the church meant the West would never have supported the East, the inevitable result in the decline of Byzantium was caused over hundreds of years, not one battle.
Hard to say IMO. Alp Arslan was clearly far more interested in taking Egypt than invading Anatolia - even after Manzikert he didn't - and the sources to tend to indicate that he was far from confident about beating the Byzantines in battle. IMO the civil wars that followed after Manzikert were the real issue for the Byzantines as it wrecked the army which, as you rightly say, still had a solid and effective core even if this was smaller than it had been say 50 years before.
Manzikert is one of those battles that sparks endless discussion and reinterpretation - which is why I said the possibilities I mentioned were only theories (and I didn't say which I thought was right!). Personally I think Robin is right it was mostly cock-up and that Nic is right it was the subsequent civil wars that really ruined the Byzantine army - but I can't prove it! There are a couple of things to say on the other side though. The CinC Romanus wasn't necessarily incompetent - he had a couple of successful campaigns in the same area a few years before. There is also some evidence the army was run down - John Julius Norwich has him spending the year before Manzikert repairing the army "making good at least some of the damage wrought by Constantine IX and X and their predecessors". There is also the theory he was betrayed by the rearguard led by Ducas (who wanted to replace him). We also have the problem that Michael Psellus (one of the main sources) supposedly wanted Ducas as Emperor, so we don't even know if we are getting a straight story from him. All in all I think we will never really know - which is never going to stop wargamers from speculating, of course!