My Compendium isn't here yet so not had chance to read the rules, just been playing with others who have them and using the QRS. Just been reading through posts though and I think we're doing something wrong. If I read it right when your general is moving with a TUG and that TUG enters combat you can decide whether the general will fight or not. We have that part right. We've also been giving the TUG the +1 for the general in combat.
I read though that you have to declare what rank the general is fighting in. So, if you put the general in the second rank, does he still confer the +1 to the fighting TUG? I'd guess not, otherwise you'd keep him out of harm's way in the second rank every time. If he doesn't confer any bonus though, what would be the point of having him fight with the unit from the 2nd rank.
I'm sure it'll be clearer when I have the book in front of me, just want to make sure we get the general fighting right next time.
The phrase fighting in the first Rank is really just a phrase indicating that he is fighting in the forefront of the unit. In simple terms the general is either fighting with the unit or he is not. If he fights (in the front Rank) then he gets the plus one. If not fighting then he is in the rear of the unit and no bonus is conferred. It is one or the other with no other options.
Hope this helps.
Ah thanks. We were doing it right then, there's not two 'fighting with unit' options that differ between front or rear rank, just that he's fighting or he's not.
If said General is fighting in the front rank and gaining the unit a +1, he is then at risk if the unit receives two hits or more in combat.
Quote from: MADdaz on September 13, 2020, 05:08:23 AM
If said General is fighting in the front rank and gaining the unit a +1, he is then at risk if the unit receives two hits or more in combat.
No, he has a KAB test if the front rank element of the file is removed, either due to the opponent rolling a skull against that file, an opponent rolling a wound against that file when the UG already carries a wound or (extremely rarely) if the front rank file is removed for another reason.
Richard
I may be over-interpreting these posts but it is only the file the General is with that gets the +1 (+2 if Legendary) NOT the UG as a whole.
Quote from: steads on September 13, 2020, 12:25:35 PM
I may be over-interpreting these posts but it is only the file the General is with that gets the +1 (+2 if Legendary) NOT the UG as a whole.
Indeed.
Richard
The file or the front base of the file ( just in case the file is also fighting a flank charge )
so if the general is behind the unit, no plus on dice roll. if he is in the front of the unit the whole unit gets a plus 1? or just stand he is in front of?
It is just the file that the general is with, so never the entire UG, just the file - which may not be what you think it is. (At least it wasnt' for me.)
Take the case of a file of 2 units with the front unit fighting frontally and the rear unit is fighting a rear charge, so 2 combats for the 1 "file". (Sucks to be you.) The general (wishing to go down in glory?) has been designated to be fighting in the front rank.
So... do both combats benefit from the general?
The QRS states a "General fighting in file" gets a claim, but then you have to look up the definition of a file in the glossary, which basically says that they all have to be contiguous and face the same way to be a file. If the rear base is facing to the rear it is not in the same file as the front base (which is facing in a different direction) and so doesn't get the general's bonus.
If instead both bases were facing the same direction (say to the front), they would be fighting two combats but only rolling the dice once. Still, the general's bonus might affect the color (sorry - colour) of the dice the enemy uses for the rear attack. Since both bases are now in the same file the QRS as written says that the general's bonus applies to both combats.
Another case would be a pike column of 4 bases, the 1st 2 fighting a frontal combat and the last two fighting a flank attack but still facing the same direction as the first two bases. (Similar to the diagram on p142.) If a general is fighting with the file it seems he would provide a bonus to both attacks since, according to the glossary definition of a file, all 4 bases are in the same file.
See, it's perfectly logical. (Now I'm just waiting for someone to tell me it's perfectly wrong. ::) )
Part of the answer lies pg 215 definition of file . A file has all bases facing the same direction ...so if attacked in the rear and having turned it is not the same file ..but nothing is said if you have a corridor 4 bases deep, the general is in the file and the front rank and 4th base are engaged frontally ...
No answer ?
Quote from: FrancisSmall on September 16, 2020, 06:04:47 AM
It is just the file that the general is with, so never the entire UG, just the file - which may not be what you think it is. (At least it wasnt' for me.)
Take the case of a file of 2 units with the front unit fighting frontally and the rear unit is fighting a rear charge, so 2 combats for the 1 "file". (Sucks to be you.) The general (wishing to go down in glory?) has been designated to be fighting in the front rank.
So... do both combats benefit from the general?
The QRS states a "General fighting in file" gets a claim, but then you have to look up the definition of a file in the glossary, which basically says that they all have to be contiguous and face the same way to be a file. If the rear base is facing to the rear it is not in the same file as the front base (which is facing in a different direction) and so doesn't get the general's bonus.
If instead both bases were facing the same direction (say to the front), they would be fighting two combats but only rolling the dice once. Still, the general's bonus might affect the color (sorry - colour) of the dice the enemy uses for the rear attack. Since both bases are now in the same file the QRS as written says that the general's bonus applies to both combats.
Another case would be a pike column of 4 bases, the 1st 2 fighting a frontal combat and the last two fighting a flank attack but still facing the same direction as the first two bases. (Similar to the diagram on p142.) If a general is fighting with the file it seems he would provide a bonus to both attacks since, according to the glossary definition of a file, all 4 bases are in the same file.
See, it's perfectly logical. (Now I'm just waiting for someone to tell me it's perfectly wrong. ::) )
This is the reason for the diagram on page 135. Once you turn you create a new file. The general must therefore choose which file they are now fighting with. Hence in glossary .... note facing in the same direction... so your pikes have many file within the corridor one it gets confused and facing in multiple direcitions.
File
A base facing to its front and all bases in the BW corridor behind them that are facing in the same direction and in contiguous contact as a column of bases. A single corridor may have files facing to front flank and rear (4 in principle - although hard to achieve).
Yes but you may have the following case : A tug 4 rank deep .
The TUG is charged to the front but slightly from a side and so the ennemy does contact the front base of the file and the 3rd base of the file . It is the same corridor and the general fights to the front ...but there are 2 fight one for the front base and one for the 3rd base .
A single corridor, a single file but 2 fights : does the general gives his bonus to the whole file and so 2 fights ..
But only 1 file unless the troops are turned. He has no choice but to fight frontally.
There are only more than 1 file in a corridor once something trust to flank or rear.
Si
But if the charge is FRONTAL but slightly to the side and his considred frontal ...it is still one corridor ...
A
B
C
D
ABCD are one file in one corridor, A to the front, B,C,D queuing behind . An ennemy TUG charges , hits A base on the corner and C base on the corner . It is still a FRONTAL charge and one file in one corridor !There will be 2 fights, one for each impact . But it is still a file in one corridor as per definition pg 215 .
The commander is in the file fighting to the front, but which front is it ? My answer is he must choose once and for all but in the rules he gives his bonus to the file .. .
A fine twist ....
Except now as fighting too have two anyway. A with possibly B supporting and C with possible D supporting. So has to choose one fight.
Si
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on October 02, 2020, 08:49:22 AM
A fine twist ....
Except now as fighting too have two anyway. A with possibly B supporting and C with possible D supporting. So has to choose one fight.
Si
Been fun watching this one blunder around but time to comment I think ;D
The point Jacques is making here is that all the bases are still a single file despite the file having 2 fights and the QRS claim is for "General fighting in file" - the latter is not linked to any single dice roll and so as written on the QRS a general fighting in the file would add to any fight the file has.
FWIW I suspect that if the wording about fighting in the front rank that is used in places was in fact "fighting in the file" the question would not arise :)
I will admitt pushing it a bit, but I know players and the questions will come . Punch and I are often taken as a reference so we go as far as possible when something fishy is possible so as to be able to give a straight simple answer .
By the way I hope to have the french QRS latest monday to submitt to other french players for correction .
Yes always good that you push the limits as then I can answer at least.
Not a problem. I find it a good healthy process.
S
Quote from: nikgaukroger on October 02, 2020, 08:58:10 AM
The point Jacques is making here is that all the bases are still a single file despite the file having 2 fights and the QRS claim is for "General fighting in file" - the latter is not linked to any single dice roll and so as written on the QRS a general fighting in the file would add to any fight the file has.
FWIW I suspect that if the wording about fighting in the front rank that is used in places was in fact "fighting in the file" the question would not arise :)
Can we finally nail this then please :)
A file can have, IIRC, 4 fights so if the QRS is applied as written a general fighting in the file (no mention of where) gives the + claim to
all the fights.
If the corridor is one file then yes it would be.
are we going round in circles.
So
A
B
C
D
All facing forwards is 1 file. So I guess there yes he counts for all.
Once they turn they create new files in the same corridor so then have to choose.
Is that fully consistent as written.
Si
Cheers, I think that that is now clear 8)
I'd still stand by this though ;D
Quote
FWIW I suspect that if the wording about fighting in the front rank that is used in places was in fact "fighting in the file" the question would not arise.
Probably true. I'll add it to the tidy ups for version 3 one day.
S
Have seen all sorts of variation on this one with my memorable one being a competition where RJC did not allow me to claim in a game against him but then in the forum the next week gave the exact opposite answer.
If the general leading from the front then not sure how he can inspire up to three ranks behind him who probably cannot even see the poor sod. If he is adding a factor to all four ranks then we should probably give a plus to the chance of being killed. Up onecolour on the death roll for each attempt as he has a chance of being taken down from the rear.
Also opens up the question if he should add to the factors of all bases in other formations such as orb. He is much more visible there.
Quote from: marshalney2000 on October 04, 2020, 06:31:21 PM
Have seen all sorts of variation on this one with my memorable one being a competition where RJC did not allow me to claim in a game against him but then in the forum the next week gave the exact opposite answer.
If the general leading from the front then not sure how he can inspire up to three ranks behind him who probably cannot even see the poor sod. If he is adding a factor to all four ranks then we should probably give a plus to the chance of being killed. Up onecolour on the death roll for each attempt as he has a chance of being taken down from the rear.
Also opens up the question if he should add to the factors of all bases in other formations such as orb. He is much more visible there.
Get over it! If I was infallible it would be such a bore. Umpires are allowed to get it wrong as long as they are trying their best.
I think Simon has made the position clear.
Richard
Quite clear from Simon but just inputting a view if this is allowed. Can let it rest now.
So pushing things is usefull so I am still usefull ;D
Always.
From such pushing incomes tightening. ;D
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on October 04, 2020, 05:21:22 PM
Probably true. I'll add it to the tidy ups for version 3 one day.
S
Is there going to be an errata at some stage? Not sure how long a 'v3 one day' might be before it comes but I've seen a few posts mentioning an issue being noted for 'v3 one day'. Until that v3 does come it would be preferable IMO to be able to find all these issues in once place rather than having to trawl the forums trying to remember where they are.
There is a Clrries/Errata document on the MeG website - https://lurkio.co.uk/meg/meg/wp-content/uploads/MEG2020/Rule_Materials/MeG%20Compendium%20Clarries.pdf
No doubt will be updated from time to time.
Already exists.
Si
it's the updating of it with the current batch of "maybe for v3 some day" that is more the question. Hopefully those issues are collated for inclusion?
I keep that in the background privately. Its a rather short list at present. :D
Nothing broken at all. Maybe I will have a big idea in 5 years time.
But right now I think we have lovely stability for 10 years of playing the game.
Si
No problem, as I said, I've just noticed 2-3 "maybe for v3" replies as I've been going through the forums, just didn't want to lose track of tweaks that may have been made or agreed upon that aren't in an errata document, nothing I hate more than when someone pops a "oh didn't you see that post in the forum, it's been changed". That said, my reply is always "show me in the rules or an official errata or we play by as per the book".
No, honestly, I called Simon last night and he said... ;)
Quote from: Mars on October 12, 2020, 02:38:14 AM
No problem, as I said, I've just noticed 2-3 "maybe for v3" replies as I've been going through the forums, just didn't want to lose track of tweaks that may have been made or agreed upon that aren't in an errata document, nothing I hate more than when someone pops a "oh didn't you see that post in the forum, it's been changed". That said, my reply is always "show me in the rules or an official errata or we play by as per the book".
Is the right answer. That is why we have the official errata on the rules section as against the banter and debate here.
S
Quote from: Simon Meg-Meister on October 04, 2020, 04:23:35 PM
If the corridor is one file then yes it would be.
are we going round in circles.
So
A
B
C
D
All facing forwards is 1 file. So I guess there yes he counts for all.
Once they turn they create new files in the same corridor so then have to choose.
Is that fully consistent as written.
Si
Hy I come back on this one as we had a similar case yesterday. I did not find it in the clarries so just want to be 100 % sure : the general gives it's bonus to the whole file, for all fights of the file as long as all bases are facing the SAME direction so if flank charged the general gives it's bonus at charge but may loose it if the base later turns to face the enemy.
Also I suppose every time a base is lost, there is a KAB to the general
I would suggest make it a bit clearer in the updated version