mid republican roman triarii and velites

[badhabum]

In the mid republican army the notes says :

The number of triarii cannot exceed 1/4 of the number of hastati and principes.  The army cannot have more leves or velites than hastati and principes

But there is no minimum for those units who do not seem ti be mandatory at all !

[lionheartrjc]

Triarii are not compulsory.  On a few occasions they were not present (admittedly this was rare).
Leves/velites are not compulsory.  They are not mentioned in some battles, although this might be because they weren't considered worth mentioning.

Personally, I think it is not a proper mid-Republican Roman army if it doesn't have Velites and Triarii!

Richard

[RobAustin]

At Cannae, I believe the Triarri were detailed to guard the camp and so did not actually participate.

One could imaging the Velites being off scouting, or something.

But, like Richard, does not seem quite right without them both. That said, I do like the flexibility. It has been an unfortunate effect of the knowledge that we have had about some armies, that armies we know a lot about often are very limited in the list because we DO know about them. Then for some armies for which we have little information the lists are very open and allow a lot of options. So it is good that the army is more flexible, which can make it more viable for tournaments.

[steads]

Personally, I think it is not a proper mid-Republican Roman army if it doesn't have Velites and Triarii!
Richard

Cue Jason bringing MRR with no Velites or Triarii just to wind Richard up.
"MacRR with Extra Cheese" anyone?

[Robin]

My Opinion. Unfortunately Unless the Triarii/velites are not mandatory, it makes the army very expensive, which means they get used very little which is a shame considering they had such a prominent role on the world stage in the classical era. I argued a couple of years ago that they should be incorporated into a combined legion instead of having sperate wargaming units for Hastati, Principes , Triarii,  This was because I think that the use of the Triarii in a battle was rare, and in wargaming terms the Long Spear insignificant. (With such a small amount of figures). My idea is that you simply have a couple of Triari figures on a base, thus representing there presence. Leave the unit weapon as impact weapon. Still have some compulsory Velites. It makes the army much more viable. Unfortunatly unless they play in period opponents they will struggle. Your best bet is to give them the Pergamene allies.

[nikgaukroger]

Or Numidian allies if you have the skills to use them   

[badhabum]

Unfortunatly unless they play in period opponents they will struggle. Your best bet is to give them the Pergamene allies.

At IWC that is part of the reason why we play till 116 BCE ( or all lists before 115 BCE )

[rayfredjohn]

don't really understand this thread. Is it legal? Yes/no. Binary.

[martymagnificent]

Yes it is legal to run no Triarii and Velites.

The extra discussion was just feelings about this.

For what it is worth I'm happy to run Triarii (even a small unit of superior spearmen make it harder for shock cav to crush your line). I can probably live without Velites (especially if I take an Iberian ally with its Caetrati)

Martin

[rayfredjohn]

Fought against it this week. Good army in period. 2020 changes help it.

[Kokor Hekkus]

Or Numidian allies if you have the skills to use them   

Ouch, that was a low punch 

[Gavin]

Slightly different query.

Why is the upgrade to Velites after 209BC optional?

Is this to allow for interpretation that Velites were not that special...so just like other javelin armed skirmishers?

[lionheartrjc]

Slightly different query.

Why is the upgrade to Velites after 209BC optional?

Is this to allow for interpretation that Velites were not that special...so just like other javelin armed skirmishers?

Yes.

[Gavin]

Slightly different query.

Why is the upgrade to Velites after 209BC optional?

Is this to allow for interpretation that Velites were not that special...so just like other javelin armed skirmishers?

Yes.

Thanks