Shoot & Charge

[Bill]

A couple of queries came up in a recent game.

1. Two units facing each other, both have Shoot and Charge capability. Unit A declares a charge with shoot and charge on unit B. Can unit B do likewise, in other words both units charging at each other using shoot and charge. The rules seem only to limit the use of shoot and charge for Countercharges and intercepts so we couldn't see why unit B could not do this. Usually there is no advantage to a unit being charged also declaring a charge on the unit charging it, but with shoot and charge I could see it better than standing and shooting. Perhaps it depends on who gets to actually activate the charge first.

2. Does all shooting count as simultaneous when using shoot and charge. For example a mounted unit with Bows and shoot and charge, charges a Javelin armed foot unit from 3BW. The rule implies that shooting is done before the charge move, at which point the defending Javelins cannot shoot as they are out of range. The Javelins can of course shoot as the charge comes within 1 BW but the question is really about timing of any shooting effect on the defending unit and whether any casualties inflicted are taken off before the defending unit can fire as the charging unit is deemed to have shot first.

Thanks

[nikgaukroger]

A couple of queries came up in a recent game.

1. Two units facing each other, both have Shoot and Charge capability. Unit A declares a charge with shoot and charge on unit B. Can unit B do likewise, in other words both units charging at each other using shoot and charge. The rules seem only to limit the use of shoot and charge for Countercharges and intercepts so we couldn't see why unit B could not do this. Usually there is no advantage to a unit being charged also declaring a charge on the unit charging it, but with shoot and charge I could see it better than standing and shooting. Perhaps it depends on who gets to actually activate the charge first.

Yes B can also declare a charge and thus get the Shoot & Charge benefit.

2. Does all shooting count as simultaneous when using shoot and charge. For example a mounted unit with Bows and shoot and charge, charges a Javelin armed foot unit from 3BW. The rule implies that shooting is done before the charge move, at which point the defending Javelins cannot shoot as they are out of range. The Javelins can of course shoot as the charge comes within 1 BW but the question is really about timing of any shooting effect on the defending unit and whether any casualties inflicted are taken off before the defending unit can fire as the charging unit is deemed to have shot first.

Thanks

The definition of Shoot & Charge says that the UG shoot "immediately when they declare a charge". Thus it would not appear to be simultaneous. No idea if this is intentional or an unexpected effect of the wording, but it does add a subtelty to the order of declaring charges. It also means targets know the effect of the shooting before they declare any response. Oddly (maybe) the shooting of Shoot & Charge UGs is not actually mentioned in the turn sequence.

Shoot & Charge is done from the position the units start before any movement so, as you say, if at 3BW bows could shoot but not javelins. This differs from those standing to shoot or skirmish/run-way where it is adjudicated as if at 1BW.

[Bill]

Thanks Nick. A further question on point 1. So both units are able to declare shoot and charge. Unit A activates first and shoots and moves into contact with unit B (assuming no slows from unit B). Unit B then is deemed to be charging too, although in this instance has not moved. What happens if unit A is slowed so that no contact is made from its charge, can unit B now move instead so that contact is made?

[nikgaukroger]

It will indeed.

[Administrator]

Well done Nik first white dice !

[Bill]

Interesting, will change the dynamic for some charges then as you can't be sure where contact will be made.

[rayfredjohn]

so, it's fair to say that shoot and charge brings some more depth and tactics into the Game.

That's me f*cked then.

[John 63]

if shoot and charge is assumed to take place immediately before movement and before the opponents response ( in case of person declaring the charge first). What would happen if the target had shield cover and was also declaring shoot and charge. Would their cover bonus still apply as they would still be in cover at the time of the first shoot and charge? If it was simultaneous then the cover would be broken.

[nikgaukroger]

Shield Cover only applies in the Shooting Phase - see point 1 in the definition 

[Simon Meg-Meister]

All

Made it as declared as in practice it makes you remember - no more than that.

Slight benefit to declaring first as you might shoot a base off - which I sort if liked for those types of troops.

Si

[badhabum]

Thanks Nick. A further question on point 1. So both units are able to declare shoot and charge. Unit A activates first and shoots and moves into contact with unit B (assuming no slows from unit B). Unit B then is deemed to be charging too, although in this instance has not moved. What happens if unit A is slowed so that no contact is made from its charge, can unit B now move instead so that contact is made?

IIf A charges, is slowed down and fails to contact B, there is no contact, no impact, no melee . B will move during charge phase only if it has also declared a charge .

[Simon Meg-Meister]

All seems correct above to me.

Si