How to beat the (insert meta army here)?

[marshalney2000]

Will, I do not know how your game against Hunter played out but against me in the previous game your left flank was in the air. My army was slower than Hunters but if you did the same then I imagine his eight units of mounted long spear made hay and rolled you up while his crap but numerous Infantry pinned your better quality Infantry in place.

[nikgaukroger]

Will's write up here - https://madlemmey.blogspot.com/2019/06/skullrollers-day-2-senguko-samurai-vs.html

Afraid it does look to me that the left flank was hanging protected only by vast areas of fresh air    Also seemed to let his army get broken up presenting opportunities to Hunter.

On that terrain I think that using the woods on the right to cover a flank and keeping things nice and tight whilst aiming to get the 3 powerbow units into action against cavalry would have been a better approach.

No idea if Will was outscouted but I also think a deployment a bit further back would have helped.

[marshalney2000]

To be fair to Will, the MEG scoring system does not encourage hanging back. With a small army such as he has the advance then makes it difficult to cover flanks. Hence the reason Hunter and I went for large armies of standard type troops. Engage frontally then work the flanks before your large engaged foot units get whittled down.
Even Alasdair had a horde type army where he went a stage further of downgrading shooting skills that he did not think necessary to his game plan. Could shoot unskilled when enemy were heavily degraded but also allowing him not to pay to hold charges when close to the enemy.
I love quality troops but as things stand would never pick them as it makes the army too small when larger average units have greater staying power. Also better to avoid impact advantages as these are a one shot weapon which work occasionally but then have cost you a lot of points that you cannot use again unless you break off. Better to go for melee benefits where large units are likely to be able to use them over several rounds.
God, that sounds really cynical but just my current view. I think Hunter's choice of long spear cavalry who get the benefit of a factor in every round regardless of terrain and also stop melee expert in others reflect this philosophy. Look at the benefits of mounted long spear and they are as cheap as chips.

[mad lemmey]

Terrain fell in the plains both games, so my flank was always going to be tattered.
Oh well, next time. 

[nikgaukroger]

To be fair to Will, the MEG scoring system does not encourage hanging back.

Who said anything about hanging back. Plus the incentives apply to both players, you can't hide behind it as a cause of defeat.

With a small army such as he has the advance then makes it difficult to cover flanks.

You have to work on it, but it is far from impossible. As I've mentioned somewhere my armies are generally the smaller when I play and I'm doing OK with them I think. A bit of forethought and practice helps, plus not going into the game assuming you will be outflanked - that just becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy 

[nikgaukroger]

Terrain fell in the plains both games, so my flank was always going to be tattered.
Oh well, next time. 

Afraid I rather think you helped it along in your game against Hunter though 

[Dru]

Gents,

gentle and only reminder: let's move this away from publicly discussing/critiquing one person's game and go back to discussing the rule/point query and give Si some ideas for consideration.

Cheers.

[nikgaukroger]

Erm, whats wrong with discussing a specific game?

Will has asked for input into how to beat certain army types, referenced this game, and has put it into the public domain by putting it on his blog. As long as nobody is breaking the forum rules by, for e.g., attacking Will personally when discussing it I can't see that there is an issue. It is a useful real life example to illustrate things.

I don't think this part of the forum is only for rule point discussion.

[marshalney2000]

Certainly not criticising Will who is a very experienced and certainly more so than I am. He also scored well in all the other games he played in Daventry and his MEG ranking demonstrates this.
I know he had a real feeling of frustration after the two games against myself and Hunter and indeed it was this I think that led to him raising the viability of a small quality army against the alleged horde army in game balance terms. This is the area for discussion.
For myself, while both armies he faced had 13 TUGS, I do not think they were true hordes n terms of for example Spartacus. Both the armies had no low quality troops but rather lots of lowish cost very effective ones such as the masses of long spear protected cavalry.

[Dru]

No worries. As long as people don't perceive it as a bit of a tune up of one individual. I'm sure we all want the boards to be welcoming.

[mad lemmey]

THIS THREAD IS NOT ATTACKING ME1) I was an idiot.
Can we take that point as read.
2) I tried one block, I tried two blocks and a pinning force while picking on units I could/should beat. It didn't work. I'm looking for advice how to beat this type of army and improve. If not beat them, at least cause some damage!
3) see 1 (above).
4) I'm sure I can come up with any number of excuses, but I have realised that I basically got too big for my boots and forgot that I go along to these things to have fun.
5) See 3 (above)

Sorry I was a stroppy fool. Hugs.

[mad lemmey]

And I'm sure in future, I will use this thread to moan about other armies!

[craig.w]

Even Alasdair had a horde type army where he went a stage further of downgrading shooting skills that he did not think necessary to his game plan. Could shoot unskilled when enemy were heavily degraded but also allowing him not to pay to hold charges when close to the enemy.

How many TUGs did Alasdair and the other place getters' armies have? I wonder if anyone has any stats on army lists of the winners in various comps. I've often thought that a large army (particularly cavalry) is a bit of a "hard to break in 3 hours' kind of deal, so you don't often give away the 15 points. And small units of cavalry with unskilled missile weapon to get evade is a bargain up there with long spear. Maybe up the cost of unskilled for cavalry because of the evade advantage. Unskilled javelin short spear is in my opinion a lot better than just short spear cavalry.

[marshalney2000]

Will, you were certainly not an idiot. Hands up those who have never made a mistake in a game that cost them the fight.
My last game at Skulls was my example. Got over confident about what my boys could do and threw in part of my army against the Immortals when the sensible thing to do was take time and mass my forces so I could over power him from different angles. Probably cost me third place. A game of fine margins for all of us and one where a moment of thoughtlessness can cost us dear.
Onwards and upwards.

[marshalney2000]

Even Alasdair had a horde type army where he went a stage further of downgrading shooting skills that he did not think necessary to his game plan. Could shoot unskilled when enemy were heavily degraded but also allowing him not to pay to hold charges when close to the enemy.

How many TUGs did Alasdair and the other place getters' armies have? I wonder if anyone has any stats on army lists of the winners in various comps. I've often thought that a large army (particularly cavalry) is a bit of a "hard to break in 3 hours' kind of deal, so you don't often give away the 15 points. And small units of cavalry with unskilled missile weapon to get evade is a bargain up there with long spear. Maybe up the cost of unskilled for cavalry because of the evade advantage. Unskilled javelin short spear is in my opinion a lot better than just short spear cavalry.

From memory, I think Alasdair had 12 TUGs. Mostly cost effective cavalry but around three cheap foot units.