How to beat the (insert meta army here)?

[marshalney2000]

By the way, Nik, have a little sympathy for Will he had two pretty traumatic experiences in consecutive games against large horde type armies.

[marshalney2000]

Just looking at the army list for Hunter's army where he has the option to upgrade his cavalry to lancer and melee expert. My question is with all the advantages of long spear cavalry whybwould he want to. Certainly he has a disadvantage in impact but if he is three ranks deep he will survive and then be up for all the melee rounds. I imagine lancer, melee expert is also a bit more expensive than long spear.
Have to go as I need to paint some Arab cavalry.

[nikgaukroger]

I imagine lancer, melee expert is also a bit more expensive than long spear.

10 pts a base more expensive for Average types.

[nikgaukroger]

FWIW I'd be OK with mounted Long Spear costing the same as CL + ME.

[marshalney2000]

Nik, I am sure your view on the subject is worth a lot bearing in mind your extensive knowledge.
I would go one step further and suggest we remove the plus for Mounted long spear in terrain. Yes, I know that they used this to nullify advantages of Byzantine cavalry which it does as lance does not count but do they need an advantage on top of this levelling of off factors? One step too far in my view. It also encourages them to put down magic terrain pieces where they get plus one and foot spears do not. Certainly foot spears might be a little out of formation but can surely match mounted long spears in rugged terrain where controlling a horse is a bit more challenging.

[nikgaukroger]

I would go one step further and suggest we remove the plus for Mounted long spear in terrain. Yes, I know that they used this to nullify advantages of Byzantine cavalry ...

They didn't. As I have pointed out before, this is being confused with the statement in the Straegikon that the Persians would seek to fight in broken ground to negate the Romans lancers.

Currently given than Short Spear and mounted Polearm do not get charge combat claims if affected it does seem a bit odd that mounted long spear does. In melee combat it is probably in the same boat as mounted polearm and ME (at least where ME is representing some sort of prowess with side arms - it does not necessarily do so of course) in terms of usability in terrain IMO - unlike foot spears it is not a mass use weapon but more individualistic (cf the DBM reference to "fencing lancers").

[craig.w]

By the way, Nik, have a little sympathy for Will he had two pretty traumatic experiences in consecutive games against large horde type armies.

What about the poor bloke who played Will first and his fully armoured knights on fully armoured horses get shot up on yellow dice by midgets on horses?

I have sympathy for Will because some armies are a bad match up but I'm not sure that horde armies break the rules.

I do think that scouting for horde armies is broken though. Lots of times I have supposedly outscouted my opponent by 70-80% and because he has 15+ UGS I end up putting my whole army down first and then he puts his last and best TUGs down after seeing my whole army.

[craig.w]

I can't speak for the podium dwellers but I managed a 2,15,15,15,15 at skulls with a bit of a horde - 5 x 8 tribal close, protected, average, shieldwall only foot and 8 x 6 formed loose, protected average, long spear cavalry. 2 competent instinctive commanders and talented instinctive ally commanders (one of whom was unreliable in my last game with Si!).

OTOH Hussites ain't cheap and they came second.

You pays your points and takes your chances!

Big thanks to Si and my other opponents at the basho.

HH

Well done Hunter, almost on the podium but it seems you dived the submarine a bit too low in the first round

[Hunter]

[/quote]

Well done Hunter, almost on the podium but it seems you dived the submarine a bit too low in the first round
[/quote]#

Aw mate I hit the bottom of that Marajuhana Trench in game one!  No way back after that!  But thanks for the thought.  63 got third place last year but 62 only got me fifth this year.  58 got me fourth last year!  The standard of play is definitely getting higher and that's great as it makes for some great games.

HH

[nikgaukroger]

I do think that scouting for horde armies is broken though. Lots of times I have supposedly outscouted my opponent by 70-80% and because he has 15+ UGS I end up putting my whole army down first and then he puts his last and best TUGs down after seeing my whole army.

You may have a point here.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Yes I think removing the rough terrain benefit of Mounted Long Spear makes sense.

I do have them as slightly under-pointed or perhaps we should take away the cancellation of melee expert.
Just leaving foot long sticks keeping mtd. melee experts at bay?

Hunters army was a cracking points efficient design.

S

[martymagnificent]

Removing the bonus in terrain would not have a perceptible balance effect. I think your suggestions of upping the points or removing their ability to cancel mounted melee expert would be the way to go. I would favour the latter.

Martin

[marshalney2000]

One could even ask why pike does not cancel their factor.

[accard]

Removing the cancellation of melee expert would devalue cataphracts slightly - are they considered underpointed as well?

[Dru]

I dont think horde armies are a problem. The massed cheap Longspear Cav can be.