2026 List - Spartan/Greek

[AntiokosIII]

In the SPARTAN list before 450BC one is required to run 2 units of 6 Spartiates each. In addition, one may run 'Hoplites led by Spartiates , presumably periokoi stiffened by a few SPartiate officers, file leaders,etc. Was this intended as a regrade of the Spartiates requirement, or may both be run in full? I assume the latter, but this has been a rushed and stressful process for the TEAM, and since I am thinking seriously about investing in an army, I thought I would ask first, mostly in the spirit of 'measure twice, cut once'. Thanks.

[AntiokosIII]

Along with the above, in the Classical Greek list as revised, may a Theban army in 394 BCE run 2 Athenian contingents, or must a second internal allied contingent be from Argos? I suspect she former, but was unsure.

Similarly, since Thebes is in Boiotian, could an Athenian army in 279 field a Boiotian contingent fielding the Theban Sacred Band? I realize this unit was destroyed by the Macedonians 50+ years before, but it might have been reconstituted and it would look cool.My guess is 'no, idiot' but I seem to be a glutton for punishment.

[lionheartrjc]

In the SPARTAN list before 450BC one is required to run 2 units of 6 Spartiates each. In addition, one may run 'Hoplites led by Spartiates , presumably periokoi stiffened by a few SPartiate officers, file leaders,etc. Was this intended as a regrade of the Spartiates requirement, or may both be run in full? I assume the latter, but this has been a rushed and stressful process for the TEAM, and since I am thinking seriously about investing in an army, I thought I would ask first, mostly in the spirit of 'measure twice, cut once'. Thanks.

In the Spartan list before 450 BCE you must have 2 UGs of 6 spartiates and can take 3 UGs of 9 hoplites led by spartiates. You can also take an UG of 6 Hippeis.  Hoplites led by spartiates is not a regrade.

Clearly if you take all the good stuff it will be a small army, very tough but protecting those flanks will be quite challenging...
Hippeis = 1086 points
2 x Spartiates = 1086 points each
3 x Spartiate led hopites = 1197 points each.  6,763 points in just 6 TuGs and only 45 bases. Take them three deep and that is a frontage covering only one-third of the table.  All you need is a sea on one flank and an impassable mountain on the other... 

Note:  The list is currently draft - but I have no plans to alter it before publishing (which will be before Skullrollers in late October). 
Richard

[lionheartrjc]

Along with the above, in the Classical Greek list as revised, may a Theban army in 394 BCE run 2 Athenian contingents, or must a second internal allied contingent be from Argos? I suspect she former, but was unsure.

Similarly, since Thebes is in Boiotian, could an Athenian army in 279 field a Boiotian contingent fielding the Theban Sacred Band? I realize this unit was destroyed by the Macedonians 50+ years before, but it might have been reconstituted and it would look cool.My guess is 'no, idiot' but I seem to be a glutton for punishment.

Thebans in 394 BCE must take one Athenian and one Argive ally. 
An Athenian army in 279 BCE takes one Boiotian (it wasn't Theban) and one Aitolian ally.  Note: there is nothing in the list to stop the Boiotian ally taking an UG on elite hoplites although they wouldn't have been Theban Sacred Band - although the internal ally restrictions will apply (so you cannot take more than one UG of elite hoplites in the army).

Richard

[AntiokosIII]

Thanks for the quick replies!

[SteveO]

Clearly if you take all the good stuff it will be a small army, very tough but protecting those flanks will be quite challenging...
Hippeis = 1086 points
2 x Spartiates = 1086 points each
3 x Spartiate led hopites = 1197 points each.  6,763 points in just 6 TuGs and only 45 bases. Take them three deep and that is a frontage covering only one-third of the table.  All you need is a sea on one flank and an impassable mountain on the other... 

This raises some points.

First, the points saving from the decreased effectiveness of Spear (compared with Long Spear) and the increased vulnerability to supporting flanks and charging cavalry only gives you about one and half additional Spartan hoplite stands. This is not much helped by being able to get a +1 against non-ME foot, which they could usually beat frontally anyway

Second, as the Spartan player is very unlikely to have a Thermopaylae-like battlefield in a normal game, fighting in three rank deep TuGs of nine will exacerbate the overlap and flanking problems for the Greeks.

Third, there now appears to be an expectation that Hoplites and Pikes will/should be organised in three rank deep TuGs? Given Hoplites most commonly fought eight to twelve ranks deep and pikes 16 to 32 ranks deep, how do we account for them looking the same on the tabletop? Yes I know there were exceptions but they were unusual.