Warring states and Qin

[badhabum]

I only just noticed that all warring states do have flexible infantry. But Qin are only loose except when they combine PA and crossbow . Any specific reason as in other lists PA is sometimes close as well .

Just out of curiosity

[badhabum]

I will have to accept no one seems to have the answer

[nikgaukroger]

Oh go on then.

Qin are noted as not being that disciplined about formation (as well as being aggressive). They probably shouldn't have the Flexible in the mixed formations IMO, but what the heck.

[badhabum]

Interesting answer.

I would have tought  agressive = DC   and formation it's a point of view . Gallic are flexibles and not renowed for their discipline, galatians are close and not renowed for their discipline ( they are SP/DC) Qadi are SP/DC flexible .

But OK strange as it is to me why not as all my warring states armies are based "Qin" like

[badhabum]

I made some research on internet , I am not a scholar but I wonder why the Qin army has no LS units while spears were found in the terracota army and that weapon is also available to other warring states ?

Just one of the multiple sources : https://terracottawarriorsmuseum.com/what-weapons-did-terracotta-warriors-carry/

The soldiers are indeed descibed as unruly and eager for the fight so DC if nice . But otherwise they do not seem that different from other warring states as they are now :ormation, weaponry . They are more eager for melee yes ...so I still fail to understand must be old age

[nikgaukroger]

To tackle these in reverse order.

A quote on the Qin in battle:

Wuzi: The Qin battle array "is dispersed, with the soldiers preferring to fight individually", they "scatter and individually engage in combat. The way to attack them is to first entice them with profits for their soldiers are greedy and will abandon their generals to pursue them. Capitalizing on their misjudgement you can hunt down their scattered ranks, establish ambushes, take advantage of the moment, and then their generals can be captured"

Looks like a pretty good case that Close formation is not appropriate as well as covering their tendency to be over-eager (which is also covered in other info).

On Long Spears I am not convinced that any of the lists in Warring States & Han should have separate LSp units (or indeed the SSp ones in the Han lists).

I was looking at this again after talking with RJC about whether the LSp of the Han lists should be changed to Spear as per the proposed competition update suggestion for hoplites.

I am more convinced that whilst such weapons were used they were in mixed formations as is suggested by the quote below. IMO for at least the warring states period and the Han Polearm probably covers the effect fairly reasonably (in terms of figures it would prove no problem either as those of us with LSp figures can quite easily just use them as PA).

Methods of the Sima (4th-century,perhaps based on earlier material?): "When the weapons are not intermixed, it will not be advantageous. Long weapons are for protection; short weapons are for defending" (p.130); bows, maces, spears, halberds, spear-tipped halberds, "Now each of these weapons has its appropriate use. The long protect the short, the short rescue the long. When they are used in turn, the battle can be sustained"

[badhabum]

I understand your logic about the "loose" .

I also had read some info.

Now let us be positive:

If the fight in a dispersed "order" , going in as individualist why would they need 2 rank deep vs infantry when in melee as required by PA. I do not see the logic in it .

If the units are "mixed" PA/LS/swords, axes, short spears as you wrote OK maintaining PA and adding a spear protection might it not do the trick ? The LS protecting the PA and so on . Or even discarding the PA and replace it by SP + ME and add the "spear protection" . Would it not be better to reflect the Qin organisation ? Just adding spear protection sees enough to me

[nikgaukroger]

As I mentioned earlier, I am comfortable that Polearm gets the right outcomes for Chinese infantry of the warring states and Han periods against their historical enemies (themselves with added Xiongnu later  ).

[badhabum]

Qin have only PA all the others, including Han, do have some long Spears 

But do not worry I understand You are satisfied