Turning 90 question

[GEOFFRM1]

Page 55 says just that you turn 90 degrees and expand up to one element on either side. it is simple.  The complication comes in in the example which says that when the unit turns it is the same width as it was deep, which is hard not to do if you turn a square.  What the example should say is that when you turn a file the front left hand corner should occupy the same position the right hand corner occupied. You then expand up to one base either side from there.

Geoff

[nikgaukroger]

The example on page 61, whilst being about turning 90 into a legal formation does, includes in the wording in 3.6:

"... first turn to be at least as wide as their initial depth ..."

Whilst not definitively a rule per se, it doesn't make sense to mention it unless the intention is that it is a rule IMO.

[badhabum]

The example on page 61, whilst being about turning 90 into a legal formation does, includes in the wording in 3.6:

"... first turn to be at least as wide as their initial depth ..."

Whilst not definitively a rule per se, it doesn't make sense to mention it unless the intention is that it is a rule IMO.

I agree

I had missed that point when looking for how to turn  ...

[GEOFFRM1]

As I have said before if this is a rule it only affects skirmishing light horse which is not a formed body so should probably not be affected anyway.  Foot tugs are made up of squares and will always be able to turn as wide as they were deep, 

Geoff

[nikgaukroger]

It affects any mounted who are deployed 2 bases wide and 3 deep, its just that it impacts on skirmishers shooting as they're now only 2 deep - however, it can also be a benefit for them if running away with a 90 degree turn as their rear edge is further away from the enemy after the turn 

However, as base depth is massively over stated compared to real life formation depth, and, as you mention, skirmishers have a less formal order, I think this is something that could benefit from a look at.

[lionheartrjc]

Assuming standard 15mm depths, the current situation is such that most UGs that turn 90 degrees will end up two files wide. The only exceptions would be cavalry, camelry, chariots or elephants that start 3 or 4 ranks deep.  Cavalry or camelry that are 3 or 4 ranks deep become 3 files wide.  Elephants or chariots 3 ranks deep will end up 3 files wide.  Chariots that are 4 ranks deep will end up 4 files wide.

So cavalry or camelry that are 3 ranks deep are really the only anomaly.  I wouldn't have a problem with an explicit rule which allowed 2 wide cavalry UGs to remain 2 wide when they turn 90 degrees.  That said it isn't a situation that comes up very often, mostly affects skirmishing cavalry (as others have pointed out) and skirmishing cavalry can often wheel rather than turning.

Richard

[Simon Meg-Meister]

To be totally honest that rule as per the diagram is a FOG legacy that I never really reconsidered.
I'm sold on skirmishers allowed tot run 90 normal depth. Kind of mirrors the rule of them always being able to expend or

The aspects to mull over are as follows:

1. Should deep formation have to spread out.  From my reading of manouvre in lagter periods ...
a) infantry who are all the same tend to turn on the spot as individuals, and then expand back out into formation thereafter.
b) cavalry don't turn so well so instead tend to break into small frontages and wheel 90 within the bigger formation.  chariots I am sure would have to do this to make such a turn. 
c) troops with different ranks find it difficult as they tend to lose their formation as they are designed to move forward and wheel.
d) skirmishers are really a swarm and just adjust facing any angle.

2. So what is best representation?
a) turn and form up 2 wide (3 if a 9).
b) turned formation more equates to the total number of ranks turning ... so depth not a bad guide perhaps
c) end up with front ranks and rear ranks in front line (skutatoi?) or allow them to reform into their correct formation.  Right no it takes two moves.  On to trun 90 and one to redress ranks.  Feels good to me.  May need a little definition.
d) Allow them to turn as a) above.

thoughts?

[GEOFFRM1]

You could just do what it says on page 55 and ignore page 61.  Turn an element 90 deg and expand up to 1 base width either side. 

Geoff

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Work for infantry.
Doesn't feel right for 3 deep cavalry or chariots to me though.
Ought to allow a longer and deeper run across front and wheel into wider line.

Si

[GEOFFRM1]

At the moment you have two rules performing the same function.  On page 55 you turn an element 90 deg and expand up to 1 base width on either side. On page 61 you turn an element and then move other elements to make the width the same as the depth was before the turn.  I assume you occupy the same space and therefore if you turn right the other 2 elements would be to your right. and not on either side.  Do you then get to move a base width either side to make a legal formation?
Also my chariots are on 40mm depth bases so turning them does not affect them at all except they only use the rule on page 55 if they need to expand. The rule on page 61 only affects the ability of LH skirmishers , and nothing else, to function in their tactical role.

Geoff

[nikgaukroger]

On page 55 you turn an element 90 deg and expand up to 1 base width on either side.

Note that this rule is for a specific case when a 90 degree turn would otherwise leave the formation an illegal one and so allows an expansion by the minimum necessary to make a legal formation.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

At the moment you have two rules performing the same function.  On page 55 you turn an element 90 deg and expand up to 1 base width on either side. On page 61 you turn an element and then move other elements to make the width the same as the depth was before the turn.  I assume you occupy the same space and therefore if you turn right the other 2 elements would be to your right. and not on either side.  Do you then get to move a base width either side to make a legal formation?
Also my chariots are on 40mm depth bases so turning them does not affect them at all except they only use the rule on page 55 if they need to expand. The rule on page 61 only affects the ability of LH skirmishers , and nothing else, to function in their tactical role.

Geoff

But it always allows chariots/cavalry

CC
CC
CC


to move forward and turn 3 wide....  thereby allowing cavalary and chariots to use a historical tactic of ride across a front and turn to face as "squadrons".

Si

[GEOFFRM1]

Yes but it forces skirmishing light horse to form up three wide two deep and therefore affects their ability to shoot.  With everything else they retain the ability for each file to function as trained, but not light horse.

Geoff

[Dru]

maybe its just a case of:

When performing a 90 degree turn:
- must have as many elements wide post turn as was deep before the turn.
- Skirmishers may elect to retain original width.


**Another question: Where do you turn from? ie: do you get to pick which based to turn and then build out from there? Seems it can be manipulated as it stands.