Later Swiss - List rule change

[lionheartrjc]

I am proposing to put a specific list rule change in for the later Swiss pikemen. 
Unprotected fleet of foot with pike do not get the benefit of moving as skirmishers (i.e. 4BW) when charging, countercharging or intercepting.
My view is that this makes them too good.  They would still get all the other benefits of fleet of foot.

The reason is that they are the most powerful unprotected melee troops, from the combination of kiel and the 12 base TuG size.  I wouldn't propose to change it for any other unprotected troops.

Richard
 

[tarnowski1]

on the whole I agree with the premise 'that this makes them too good', though in its current form the proposal is too debilitating imho. Esp as protected fleet of foot Pike would not be hampered by the rule. Rather counter intuitive.

I would suggest

Pike Kiels may only benefit from fleet of foot if moving/charging/countercharging directly ahead, though may include a M5 shift if moving. Double moves may mix.

edit- as an addendum, should a Kiel alter direction in a charge to pursue fleeing or skirmishing troops, its charge distance cannot take advantage of fleet of foot.

This removes much of the excessive flexibility of the current format.

[nikgaukroger]

Could be some argument that the Swiss movement isn't quite balanced, but I'd probably leave things as they stand at present.

Can't see any logic in just applying a change to Unprotected ones and not Protected ones - any change would apply because they are Close IMO and so would apply to both.

[lionheartrjc]

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to make it solely unprotected. It was any fleet of foot pike in kiels.

Richard

[SteveO]

So, after many years we now decide that the Swiss are the super troops of MeG based on one player's recent success in the UK? I am unconvinced but if you do want to reduce their effectiveness why not do something more historical such as making them have to force charge like devastating chargers? The proposed solution seems artificial as what historical, as opposed to game balance, reason is there for reducing charge speed?

I have not used the unprotected Swiss option but I do run the protected Swiss. The latter is not a 'killer' army as I have explained elsewhere in this forum and so does not need to have its effectiveness downgraded IMO.

Perhaps we should first wait to see if the 'newly discovered' Swiss juggernaut continues to sweep all before it before rushing to downgrade the army?

[tarnowski1]

So, after many years we now decide that the Swiss are the super troops of MeG based on one player's recent success in the UK? I am unconvinced but if you do want to reduce their effectiveness why not do something more historical such as making them have to force charge like devastating chargers? The proposed solution seems artificial as what historical, as opposed to game balance, reason is there for reducing charge speed?

I have not used the unprotected Swiss option but I do run the protected Swiss. The latter is not a 'killer' army as I have explained elsewhere in this forum and so does not need to have its effectiveness downgraded IMO.

Perhaps we should first wait to see if the 'newly discovered' Swiss juggernaut continues to sweep all before it before rushing to downgrade the army?

as that 'one player... in the UK' I do think it is more than its sum of its parts, in a very specific design.  Though that mostly applies to a tournament style competition not a normal pick up game or similar. The reason for this is the armies that would rip holes in a 5 Kiel unprotected superior Swiss force are not likely to do well against other popular tournament scene armies and so are , on the whole, never going to appear. However familiarity of the list structure will now see more effective counters develop.

As I said earlier in the thread I think Richard's proposal goes to far. The main kink, if you will, with fleet of foot pike blocks is it allows a lot of slight wheel charges to clip rear ranks of enemy tugs. it seriously bends the geometry of the game's maneuver. Its the equivalent of using armored horse/cataphracts to do the same, except the pike are good against everything, in 12s and are essentially immune to flank attacks.

A Swiss pike block without fleet of foot is dangerous but does not come close to the force multiplier of the fleet of foot version, esp unprotected where you have 5 blocks of pike, break of 4, instead of 3 blocks of pike, break of 3. 

I'm unlikely to run my Swiss over the next year or so, I ran it this year as I decided to have a year of infantry armies and to see if I could design an effective Swiss tournament list. That I've done to my own satisfaction.

My preference is leave it alone, if a tweak is deemed needed. My suggestion works imho to reduce some of the cheese and a better balance.

 

[nikgaukroger]

The main kink, if you will, with fleet of foot pike blocks is it allows a lot of slight wheel charges to clip rear ranks of enemy tugs. it seriously bends the geometry of the game's maneuver.

Its something in MeG that I really think we'd be much better off without - in fact, I'd go as far as to suggest that it may well be my "if you could change 1 thing in MeG".

More an issue than anythimg relating to the Swiss IMO.

[SteveO]

First - well done Mr 'One Player' as I am sure your success is due to more than your army choice. I am a bit surprised that you were apparently able to catch people's rear ranks as a matter of routine though.

Second - I think we are in agreement that the army is not, overall, overpowered.

Third - Nik has highlighted a key issue with MeG and many other ancients rulesets. Our ability to micro-manoeuvre units to achieve major advantages is excessive - and I am guilty of this. But like Nik said, this is a rules issue and not specific to the Swiss. I don't want to complain too much though because rules writing is all about trade-offs to achieve the desired balance between game and simulation so there is unlikely to be a single solution that will please everyone.

[badhabum]

I used a swiss army, protected and fleet of foot  ! 

So that makes me a swiss army user as well

When I first used it at Britcon I ended at the near bottom as people fled, used terrain and the infamous open terrain for mounted but rough for infantry so I did score poorly . The only player to beat me was RJC who thanks to a long Friday night game managed to beat me with his mounted shooty army that had suffered a lot for 3 hours 

I used it a year or two and it was as using a tiger tank vs WWI tanks so very powerfull because it manoeuvred quicklt ( 4 MU ) , over terrain ( 4 MU ) and could be i charge range very quickly as it charges 4 MU . So overpowered ? it is a small army 5 to 7 TUGs depending on the design and very strongh .I would argue that the swiss did manoeuver quickly but charging and maintaining a keil with militia pikemen ( and even mercenaries so veterans ) require more discipline so charging at 3 MU makes more sense . You can charge at quick march but the last meters only . Now  do we need to change the rule for it to be more logic and realistic is another debate and depends of the point of view on what is more realistic 

[tarnowski1]

The main kink, if you will, with fleet of foot pike blocks is it allows a lot of slight wheel charges to clip rear ranks of enemy tugs. it seriously bends the geometry of the game's maneuver.

Its something in MeG that I really think we'd be much better off without - in fact, I'd go as far as to suggest that it may well be my "if you could change 1 thing in MeG".

More an issue than anythimg relating to the Swiss IMO.

Agreed it's a general issue but the swiss ability to exploit it is disproportionate to that of other infantry due to the fleet of foot and general toughness of the tug.

And also agreed it'd be my nu one requested fix of the rules

[daveparish]

First - well done Mr 'One Player' as I am sure your success is due to more than your army choice. I am a bit surprised that you were apparently able to catch people's rear ranks as a matter of routine though.


Third - Nik has highlighted a key issue with MeG and many other ancients rulesets. Our ability to micro-manoeuvre units to achieve major advantages is excessive - and I am guilty of this. But like Nik said, this is a rules issue and not specific to the Swiss.

As one of the people run over during his Swiss triumphs I can attest that he is a cunning and subtle player! Having said that I have had thoughts already about how I should have played (of the "Damn why didn't I do that" variety). So perhaps we should wait to see what counters people come up with before panicking too much. I seem to remember previous "super armies" settling down to being just part of the spectrum of choices (James IV Scottish?)

On the micro-manouevring I think that might come as much from ancient players assumptions (you could call it their "culture") as from the rules. It has happened in some way in every Ancients rule set I've played.
I have occasionally been dragged into Napoleonic games to make up the numbers and (with a different rules set each time) it seems to me they have a completely different set of assumptions. It is one unit on one (sometimes illegal to put two on one), broken troops falling back through other troops without problem etc. All my assumptions and skills (such as they are!) from Ancients were kind of irrelevant. The point being that our underlying assumptions about how we play a period will trump any attempt to alter it (eg discouraging micro manouevre) by tinkering with the rules

[lionheartrjc]

That will be a no then!

Okay - I am just throwing ideas out here.
What if the Swiss were allowed to mix Protected and Unprotected pike, but the fleet of foot wouldn't allow them to charge 4BW?

By the way, I completely agree about the need for a rule change to stop hitting UGs in the flank with a frontal charge.  But rule changes won't be happening at the moment....

Richard

[nikgaukroger]

Well as we've discussed (briefly) that mixed UGs protection-wise might well be suitable for Swiss and similar (landsknechts) I'm not against that 

[tarnowski1]

That will be a no then!

Okay - I am just throwing ideas out here.
What if the Swiss were allowed to mix Protected and Unprotected pike, but the fleet of foot wouldn't allow them to charge 4BW?

By the way, I completely agree about the need for a rule change to stop hitting UGs in the flank with a frontal charge.  But rule changes won't be happening at the moment....

Richard

you could add it as an all or none option to the existing list for 2025. allowing the 'classic' version to be run as usual. or entirely mixed protected/unprotected with a reduced charge distance. That way it could be tested with out restricting the list for those who prefer the original.

I do think though that mixed protected/unprotected with 3bw charge would be significantly more powerful than the current vanilla list. That said I suspect the maximum nu of Kiels you could manage would be 4 instead of 5

[lionheartrjc]

Just to remove any uncertainty. I have decided NO list change for 2025.

If anyone wants to test out the effects of reducing the charge distance and mixing protected an unprotected in a friendly game and providing feedback that would be great.  I will add this as a scenario rule.

Richard