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Author Topic: Unnecessarily Complicated  (Read 2190 times)

ShrubMiK

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Re: Unnecessarily Complicated
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2023, 10:55:36 PM »
I agree MeG is not simple - but I wouldn't call it over-complicated. If I wanted a simple ruleset there are plenty to choose from. I have tried a few and found them unsatisfying, and wouldn't choose to play them again.

There are definitely areas in the writing of the rules that could be improved. More attention could have been paid to making clear definitions of key game terminology. Proof-reading could have been better. But any rules not written in some sort of extremely formal language are going to suffer from some amount of inherent ambiguity.

Clarifications and errata are important to try to resolve mistakes or ambiguity, although clearly too clarifications/errata many become problematic in themself.

Rules as downloadable PDFs which can be modified more more quickly may help in this regard, but of course most of us have bought printed rulebooks and don't want to be replacing those too regularly!

SteveO

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Re: Unnecessarily Complicated
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2023, 05:52:56 AM »
I agree MeG is not simple - but I wouldn't call it over-complicated. If I wanted a simple ruleset there are plenty to choose from. I have tried a few and found them unsatisfying, and wouldn't choose to play them again.

There are definitely areas in the writing of the rules that could be improved. More attention could have been paid to making clear definitions of key game terminology. Proof-reading could have been better.

Well said that man!

skb777

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Re: Unnecessarily Complicated
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2023, 12:03:40 PM »
I have always thought errata is needed in order to thwart the 'rule Nazi's" who try to ruin a game by quoting endless rules at you in order to win.

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Unnecessarily Complicated
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2024, 06:13:12 PM »
Mortem et Gloriam is one of the best competition sets created as itís tight and there at every few things to argue about.  I would add though that Mortem et Gloriam is mainly designed to be as good a recreation of a historical battle as I could come up with. And then optimised for such events based on me being a comp player for 25 years now and me being lead DBM umpire for ages. So I try to perfect it for comp play with tight rules and being available to clarify intent for the umpire team. Something is early tries to get in the DBM era from Phil with no success.

Where it has a lot of players is at club and social level. I can tell that from the sales data and the many messages I get. I would say only around 15% of regular Mortem et Gloriam players attend comps at all.  From messages I get it is most liked for being a really good refight set.  So what is really important is to remain the friendly events group which encourages people to come along when they wouldn't normally got to a 'comp'.  You can also see that from the 2700 followers we have online.  Vastly more than any event and about the same as AdlG in total.  And we haven't really got going in the USA until last year at Historiscon (see below).

As for complexity, if we can simplify it and still get the subtlety of the game and the variety of troop types I am all for it.  My Mantra always has been Einstein's quote
"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler". So where there is some 'complexity' hopefully it is because simpler makes the game worse as a representation.

Always open to suggestion for simplification that can be stored for the eventual version 2.  FWIW I have deliberately given everyone more movement options than I believe is truly historical as it makes for a better game.  But I have a different Prompted Action Tables for refights which is on the website IIRC.

In terms of growing the community the evidence I have from most places is that:
  • It is Pacto promotion and demos that gain most players, mainly from 40k, Saga communities who like the 28mm figures.  They are willing to paint a Pacto force. In South Africa we had 28 players and 16 of them came to us in 28mm via that.  Non of them had ever played ancient wargaming before. We found that at Warfare last year as well and gained players there, and at Historicon where RJC sold a lot of copies of the rules after running demoes.
    Next up is Magna demos which tend to attract old WRG 4/5/6th edition, WAB and Hail Caesar players.  Again we had that at Warfare and Historical.  I plan to do a 1 day 28mm Magna event. There was a great article by John Lambshead in one of the magazines about how Mortem et Gloriam and Hail Caesar were the only two rulesets that did refights well - but for very different reasons.
    Maximus 15mm is targeting the FoG, AdlG etc. which once you have taken a big chunk is then pretty sticky and held together by certain big clubs that are owned by a set due to a leading person - so RWG is always the home of FoG as Terry and I were there during in its development, and AdlG is held strong by Central London and Tim, and Wychbold Warriors would never do anything but Mortem et Gloriam, even if I wasn't there anymore.  Demos at other clubs tend to do rather well - as we found in Derby, Guildford, Warrington.  So if anything go and find a club not too far away and pay it a few visits to demo games.  We are going to October Club in Birmigham and Shrewsbury later this year.

Total War Rome is my main focus for gaining players longer term as it introduces the Mortem et Gloriam dice to 10,000s of players. A full 4000 people will have them int heir hands in October.  In one go that is more than the total Mortem et Gloriam sets sold since 2016. If you check out the BattlePlay expansion it is one stop from Pacto. 

I also have a few surprises up my sleeve for later this spring as promotion of the game.  I am holding back because PSC messed up and ran out of the dice!  >:( :o so I have had to do an emergency order and air ship them from China at a cost of 1000 quid!! Once we have those in stock in March and Richard B has the CCC store and partners set up well, we can then spend some money to give it a push.  USA, Germany, Italy and Spain all open for a proper push with the right availability to physical goods (which has been an issue all through the PSC era). The challenge has never been the rules but the need for the dice and cards, and getting hold of them.

Onwards and upwards

Si
« Last Edit: February 08, 2024, 11:08:08 PM by Simon Meg-Meister »
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Count_bohemond

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Re: Unnecessarily Complicated
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2024, 10:31:26 PM »
Interesting points but to say MEG is not a tournament set of rules is an odd comment.  I assume you mean statistically speaking?  Best tournament set of Ancients rules I have played.  But then I only play MAXIMUS, which is relevent I guess.  I bet no more that 10-15% of Warhammer players do tournaments, but that doesnt mean it isnt also a tournament set does it?

I remember a couple of editions ago when GW abandoned tournament players and went for 'sales'.  That back fired badly and now the 'data slate' amendments they produce each quarter are written BY a top tournament player with tournament players in mind as well as the casual gamer.  Tournament results are used to create amendments that apply to both they and casual gamers to keep the game fresh.  The current 10th edition HAS been simplified, but not enough to dumb the game down.

If the rules were so dumbed down and simplified to increase sales, it would be a big risk and might certainly put many tourney players off.  Thats what GW thought and that didnt go too well.

Obviously PACTO is an entirely different game - on whcih I have no interest in personally, but am happy to help promote.   That indeed will be an 'in' for many players of other systems and pushing it is a great idea.  MAGNA is another entirely different game to MAXIMUS.  The three versions of the game is one of the things that makes MEG so good. 

I think there is a bit too much 'tinkering' with the rules and lists IMHO.  I would leave them alone for a while and get on with pushing each version individually.