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Author Topic: MOVING CHARGERS COUNTERCHARGE MOVE  (Read 912 times)

GPAKOS

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MOVING CHARGERS COUNTERCHARGE MOVE
« on: December 06, 2023, 09:49:33 AM »
Dear all,

Good morning,

Please note that we had a question regarding moving chargers after a counter charge is declared

As per example in page 64 of the rulebook a countercharge is declared by the parthian catapracts to the gauls charging, as per example due to that the gauls contact only one base of the parthian cavalry

And our question is, could the Gauls wheel from original path of charge so to to contact more bases of the parthian cavalry? is the wheel in the bullet 3.1 (moving chargers) applicable, or wheel is not possible since the Gauls contact at least one base of the Parthians that did the countercharge?


lionheartrjc

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Re: MOVING CHARGERS COUNTERCHARGE MOVE
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2023, 01:01:04 PM »
I don't have the rules with me but I believe the chargers must charge in their original direction.  I don't believe there is any provision to change direction.

Richard

rayfredjohn

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Re: MOVING CHARGERS COUNTERCHARGE MOVE
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2023, 01:10:21 PM »
I don't have the rules with me but I believe the chargers must charge in their original direction.  I don't believe there is any provision to change direction.

Richard

Correct

jfas

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Re: MOVING CHARGERS COUNTERCHARGE MOVE
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2023, 01:49:21 PM »
I don't have the rules with me but I believe the chargers must charge in their original direction.  I don't believe there is any provision to change direction.

Richard

Correct

Hi All

As per rules

3. Chargers will move in the direction marked, wheeling onto the line of charge at the beginning
of their charge, and markers are removed (put them somewhere tidy) with one exception:
3.1. They may alter their direction if by so doing they can catch, or are attempting to catch,
any UG that has moved position since their charge was declared due to a run away,
skirmish, intercept, or countercharge. The change of direction may not exceed the limit
of a 90 wheel at the beginning of a charge.

John Fasoulas

nikgaukroger

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Re: MOVING CHARGERS COUNTERCHARGE MOVE
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2023, 01:53:27 PM »
I believe the rules section referred to in the question is:



This does refer to intercepts and countercharges as well as skirmish/run away - they are mentioned to allow UGs who declare charges against UGs who subsequently intercept/countercharge to wheel to follow them.

IMO it is clear that a change of direction from the indicated charge path can only happen if it is needed to contact enemy. If you would contact them on the declared path you cannot change direction. Therefore, the Gauls in the diagram could not wheel as they will contact along their declared charge path.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

jfas

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Re: MOVING CHARGERS COUNTERCHARGE MOVE
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2023, 02:02:29 PM »
I believe the rules section referred to in the question is:



This does refer to intercepts and countercharges as well as skirmish/run away - they are mentioned to allow UGs who declare charges against UGs who subsequently intercept/countercharge to wheel to follow them.

IMO it is clear that a change of direction from the indicated charge path can only happen if it is needed to contact enemy. If you would contact them on the declared path you cannot change direction. Therefore, the Gauls in the diagram could not wheel as they will contact along their declared charge path.

Hi Nik

In our game the countercharged was used to manouver the receiving unit so the charger could only contact one base

IMO the charger based on the above rule should be permited to change his path as to contact more than one base

John

nikgaukroger

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Re: MOVING CHARGERS COUNTERCHARGE MOVE
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2023, 02:16:32 PM »


IMO the charger based on the above rule should be permited to change his path as to contact more than one base

John

I don't believe that is correct.

The wording ".. if by doing so ..." means that you are only allowed to change direction if it is necessary to catch an enemy which has moved (for the specific reasons*). It is not a blanket allowance to change direction from the declared charge direction.

Appreciate this may be a nuance of English and gets lost in translation.


* these do not include a Charge move BTW.
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LawrenceG

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Re: MOVING CHARGERS COUNTERCHARGE MOVE
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2023, 12:52:21 AM »
Strictly, the wording imposes a requirement on what happens if you do change direction, but no requirement on what would have happened (or not happened) if you had not changed direction.

Worth making the "if the original direction would not contact the target" explicit.

At the same time, make explicit the unwritten rule that only the minimum change of direction is permitted.

I also note that you can contact any UG that moved in the specified ways, it does not have to be your original target. Not sure if that was intended.


FWIW it seems strange to me that "charge" is not on the list when countercharge and intercept are. 

nikgaukroger

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Re: MOVING CHARGERS COUNTERCHARGE MOVE
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2023, 07:26:49 AM »
Worth making the "if the original direction would not contact the target" explicit.

Something along those lines may help, but would have to be in terms of path of charge I think.

Quote
At the same time, make explicit the unwritten rule that only the minimum change of direction is permitted.

Something on how much of a wheel is allowed would indeed be helpful.

Quote
I also note that you can contact any UG that moved in the specified ways, it does not have to be your original target. Not sure if that was intended.

Suspect in practice it would only be UGs in the path of charge; not bothered by this to be honest.

Quote
FWIW it seems strange to me that "charge" is not on the list when countercharge and intercept are.

Surprised Matt H and I when it cropped up in a game we had at Ice & Fire this year, but it is clear. May be an omission, not sure why it would be deliberate, but has been thus since at least the publication of the Compendium so presumably there is a reason.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."