Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Cost of shooting  (Read 1701 times)

Jilu

  • Centurion
  • *
  • Posts: 406
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of shooting
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2023, 08:25:17 AM »
Is the problem their effectiveness in shooting or their brittleness in combat?

my two cents are on the combat issue.

it is the result of added factors that makes them brittle :
- loose infantry in the open is inferior to anything but loose infantry tugs and elephants
- the majorty is unprotected, makes them inferior to other shooters tugs or sugs, and most combat tugs
- they mostly have no  charge or melée capabilities
- alot of them have the  honor to be combat shy, that makes them even crapier combined with the above, this is  in fact overkill for them.

Makes you wonder why they are not SUGs, they should be a new UG type : BUGs, worse than SUGs for movement and receving shot, worse than TUGS for everything else


Liberate me ex infernis

rayfredjohn

  • Bibo Ergo Sum
  • T/O
  • Tribunus
  • *
  • Posts: 684
  • Wargamer Based in Surrey and West Sussex
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of shooting
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2023, 12:01:40 PM »
Interesting that everyone is focussing on foot shooting

AntiokosIII

  • Centurion
  • *
  • Posts: 354
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of shooting
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2023, 08:46:51 PM »
Personally, I focused on foot shooting because I know how it works. I have no real clue how to make horse archers work, although I have tried for years to learn the skill. In the hands of a highly skilled player they can be devastating. In the hands of a duffer like me, they are a recipe for either a draw, or a loss if too many of them get run down by their targets. I do not agree that advantages mostly due to a player’s skill ought to be penalized by point costs. YMMV.
Miniature Wargaming is the only completely honorable form of warfare ever invented by man.

ShrubMiK

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of shooting
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2023, 10:46:36 PM »
I personally think shooting effectiveness is about right. I have a couple of minor quibbles, which to be fair are maybe just based on my expectations having been set by previous rulesets:
- shooting should in general be more effective against mounted than foot (except where the horses are armoured).
- skirmishers should not in general outshoot non-skirmishers of equal ability (which they do if both are unprotected, but they don't if both are protected).

I don't see a problem with the mass of common unprotected foot archers being ineffective in combat, as I am not aware of historical sources suggesting such troops were particularly effective if their shooting failed to prevent a better equipped enemy from closing with them. Any bow-armed troops which did perform better in combat are presumably classified accordingly, e.g. being given protected, short spear, etc. The existence of sparabara etc. (or use of stakes or other obstacles in some battles) does imply that pure archers were recognised to be weak.

I'll also suggest that Greek hoplites historically being encouraged to close quickly with Persians does not IMO provide evidence that shooting should be made more effective in the game. You can argue about whether or not the interaction of charge distances, slowing effects of shooting, and the ability of the shooters to withdraw and keep firing produce something close to the historical effects.

I'm not sure that there shouldn't be more opportunity for archers to shoot over friendly troops in support - is there evidence that this could only be done by specialised mixed formations? (Obviously it should be less effective, I don't know how the rules would reflect this without making it too weak to be worthwhile).

badhabum

  • Imperator
  • *
  • Posts: 2117
    • View Profile
Re: Cost of shooting
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2023, 03:19:50 PM »
Interesting that everyone is focussing on foot shooting

Because foot are rather not so mobile as mounted, rarely flexible SK/Loose and cannot skirmish/run away unless skirmish  so not a TUG 8)

My feeling they are a bit underpowered except the "perhaps overpowered" PB vs mounted

So what did we miss, what was the real impact of shooters in antique, medieval battles ? and it includes shower of javelin