Charges ending up in an edge to edge contact with another UG

[lionheartrjc]

it doesn't address the issue of a charging enemy tug's side edge contacting the side edge of a sug. The rule is written as 'A SuG contacted in, or partially in, good going is dispersed by a charging TuG unless the TuG is within a base of breaking. The SuG is removed and the TuG's charge then continues its full distance.'

the sug isnt destroyed because its been charged and contacted by an enemy tug, its destroyed because its been contacted by a charging tug. there is no requirement for the sug to be the subject of or in the path of the charge, beyond a brush of side edges. Which I think was Laurence's point.

That is the issue I was trying to address, by saying the rule is wrong.  It is clearly not right that a SuG should be destroyed in those circumstances. 

Richard

[badhabum]

WE NEED TO REVIEW THE CLARIFICATIONS IN LIGHT OF THE PUBLICATION OF THE PDF EDITION - PLEASE BEAR WITH US ON THIS.


An UG is charged if the front edge or front corner of the UG contacts the enemy UG.  A side edge contacting the side edge of an enemy UG has not charged it.  Note: this situation only occurs when the opposing UGs are directly "lined up".  If the charger is charging at an angle to the enemy UG then it cannot end up in edge to edge contact.

Assuming a charging TuG finishes its charge in edge to edge contact with an enemy SUG, the following points are relevant:

1. Assuming the charger does not end up in a melee, the charger won't be able to do an M9 move in that turn (having charged).  The SuG will have an opportunity to move away.
2. If the charger is in melee, the charger might make an MF1 move in the movement phase to create a new file where the enemy SUG currently is. The enemy SuG is pushed back (4.I in the PDF edition, 9.3.I in the compendium edition).
3. The same MF1 move is possible at the end of the fighting phase, but in this instance the SuG is not pushed back (because push backs only happen in the movement phase).  This will initiate a melee in the following turn.  Note that the SuG would have had an opportunity to move away in the movement phase.

Please don't treat these as official clarifications.  They are posted to help understand the rules.

it doesn't address the issue of a charging enemy tug's side edge contacting the side edge of a sug. The rule is written as 'A SuG contacted in, or partially in, good going is dispersed by a charging TuG unless the TuG is within a base of breaking. The SuG is removed and the TuG's charge then continues its full distance.'

the sug isnt destroyed because its been charged and contacted by an enemy tug, its destroyed because its been contacted by a charging tug. there is no requirement for the sug to be the subject of or in the path of the charge, beyond a brush of side edges. Which I think was Laurence's point.

Regards
Matt

As a referee I'll answer that if you contact a SUG anyway you can even by sliding along it  during a charge then it's a target of the charge and may evade.

[tarnowski1]

As a referee I'll answer that if you contact a SUG anyway you can even by sliding along it  during a charge then it's a target of the charge and may evade.

which would be your right as referee , you would however be flying in the face of the author's intent and written comment on the subject, which is what started this thread in the first place....

CONTACTS THAT LEAD TO COMBAT Charge moves, pursuit moves, the provisions of Page 132 M, and MF1 moves are the only moves allowed that end in a contact that would result in a combat other than becoming a supporting file. NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).

[badhabum]

As a referee I'll answer that if you contact a SUG anyway you can even by sliding along it  during a charge then it's a target of the charge and may evade.

which would be your right as referee , you would however be flying in the face of the author's intent and written comment on the subject, which is what started this thread in the first place....

CONTACTS THAT LEAD TO COMBAT Charge moves, pursuit moves, the provisions of Page 132 M, and MF1 moves are the only moves allowed that end in a contact that would result in a combat other than becoming a supporting file. NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).

Ok then we need Simon's input, the autor  but a ruling is needed by the people who have the power to do so as it will have a certain impact .

The rule speaks of SUG that are caught in the open. What do you mean by "caught" should it not be "charged" is a side contact "caught" or not ..games of words

So here is my reasonong : first the question was already answered, we have the author's intend as in the clarification that had been issued,it is clearly stated that even if a SUG the SUG could turn 90° to engage the TUG in MELEE. That must mean that the SUG has not been destroyed so that even if contacted it has not been "caught" and is not destroyed .

So what is caught ? The rules says a SUG that has been caught is destroyed, not a SUG that has been contacted is destroyed .So might the word "caught" not imply combat contact during the charge ? If there was to be impact melee the SUG would be destroyed ? That seems to be the right meaning, the intend and has always been played that way . So a side to side contact not being an impact contact, the SUG cannot be caught and is not destroyed

Any comments on that interpretation ?

[ShrubMiK]

I totally agree with you there - caught implies something that was trying to escape. But of course unless terms are rigorously defined in the rules there will be difficulties, as with the discussions regarding what exactly is meant by fighting.

[tarnowski1]

The rules says a SUG that has been caught is destroyed, not a SUG that has been contacted is destroyed
Any comments on that interpretation ?

you are not even close with what the rules say '4. Once contact has been made with an enemy UG:
4.1. A SuG contacted in, or partially in, good going is dispersed by a charging TuG unless the TuG is within a base of breaking. The SuG is removed and the TuG's charge then continues its full distance.'

so in fact it really does actually say a sug, contacted, IS destroyed. The author's subsequent clarification alters this dynamic.

the point that perhaps should be brought up  is 4.2

'4.2 Otherwise, once contact is made by a charging UG any files must press forward up to 1BW from the line of first contact if they can contact any enemy directly ahead.'

This very heavily suggests that in the context of charges contact means ' front edge' contact otherwise any tug that charges past an enemy tug so it touches side edge to side edge actually has to stop their charge immediately it touches....

[nikgaukroger]

Ho hum, things seem to be getting a bit tied up with the wording that Richard has already said does not properly convey the intention behind the rules; which means that by doing that people will end up making this more difficult than it actually should be.

The key bit from Richard is:

An UG is charged if the front edge or front corner of the UG contacts the enemy UG.  A side edge contacting the side edge of an enemy UG has not charged it.

This should be used by a umpire as the basis for making a ruling.

Such a ruling is, IMO, pretty straight forward. A SUG is dispersed by a charging enemy and to be charged it has to be contacted by the front edge or front corner as per Richard's post. Any other contact does not disperse. Also it follows that as any other contact is not (strictly) being charged there will be no skirmish/run away - and thus the other options Richard mentioned in his post come into play.

It also follows that any contact from a press forward will need to be contact that would come under the being charged approach Richard states.

Official clarification will follow in due time as previous stated.

[nikgaukroger]

Ok then we need Simon's input, the autor 

Not just one author now 

[badhabum]

Ok then we need Simon's input, the autor 

Not just one author now 

I stand corrected

[badhabum]

An UG is charged if the front edge or front corner of the UG contacts the enemy UG.  A side edge contacting the side edge of an enemy UG has not charged it.

Not being native English , I try to understand:

If a corner to corner contact is considered being the target of a charge, then the SUG that stands next to the contacted TUG and that is in corner to corner contact with the charging TUG must/ may skirmish to avoid being destroyed as it is the target of a charge

[nikgaukroger]

Corner to corner does not create a combat so IMO based on Richards comments would also not result in dispersal or force a skirmish/run away. Obviously the declared path of charge will be important here.

[badhabum]

Thank you see you in a few days

[Princeps]

Hello,

[...]A SUG is dispersed by a charging enemy and to be charged it has to be contacted by the front edge or front corner as per Richard's post. [...]

And

Corner to corner does not create a combat [...]

Sorry if I seem obtuse, but I cannot help but find these two contradictory. Does a corner-to-corner contact create a combat or not ?

Best,
Antoine

[nikgaukroger]

It is because the first quote really needs to be saying contacted on an edge by the front edge or front corner of charging enemy or some such wording.

Corner to corner does not create combat.

[LawrenceG]

It is because the first quote really needs to be saying contacted on an edge by the front edge or front corner of charging enemy or some such wording.

Corner to corner does not create combat.

I think if the UGs are in the "headlight beam" of each other, then corner to corner contact probably ought to create combat.

I suggest the governing principle should be the contact does not create combat if the static UG does not obstruct forward movement of the moving UG.