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Author Topic: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals  (Read 3231 times)

lionheartrjc

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2023, 01:54:14 PM »
Any limitations on how many generals could be mounted on elephants or do you just assume that all generals in a qualifying army are on eles?

No restrictions other than the elephants must be in their command.  No losing your own command and then fighting with the elephants in another command.

Richard

daveparish

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2023, 02:40:08 PM »
Will an elephant general be able to fight in the front rank of a cavalry unit (or do the horses get nervous)?

lionheartrjc

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2023, 03:20:56 PM »
The general is just a general - he is not an "elephant general".  Certain lists have the ability for their generals to fight with Elephant TuGs.

Richard

badhabum

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2023, 04:06:54 PM »
Hy to all

Frankly I'll make a comment and present my point of view as positively as possible but this discussion really pisses me off. We have had that discussion a few years ago and decisions were reached. Now that same discussion starts again so are the rules stable or not ?  Yes everyone can have a change of heart but this debate has been solved, should be closed but in MEG nothing is ever closed sand that is annoying.

Now should we have generals mounted on Nellies to encourage their Nellies to fight ? My answer is negative. Whatever language the general speaks he does not speak Nelly. he speaks to the human beings that drives the Nelly, that fights from the Howdah or sitting on the nelly .

All type of generals, on foot (beware he may get trampled) on donkey, in a cart, a chariot, a horse or a camel may upgrade cards, heal "wounds" which is basically restoring order in the TUG and convincing the boys that all is OK . The only thing they may not do is give a bonus in the fight by showing the exemple which is something that can be done from the ground, on a horse, a chariot and so on as the Nelly will not care but the soldiers will be encouraged by the presence of their leader be he on foot or on a nelly.

So the simple solution is : every general can upgrade the coulour of the die of a nelly file . Make it easy it is all a game.

After all we threat all generals the same, they all move as light cavalry even in full armour, on foot on CH on nelly so be simple. Same for everyone otherwise we might open the can : a foot general moves as a SUG, a CH must pay more attention to terrain and if your leader is in full armour he will be slow ..That's not what we want do we ?

Can on foot generals upgrade battle dice from a TUG of CL ...yes so what's the specific problem for Nellies ?

Generals can upgrade the dice for BWG, even if he is on a camel !

So KISS solution, OK let the leaders, ALL of them upgrade Nellie's dice . If the main force of a specific army is not Nellies, the player might be better using his general with his good units.

Indians might choose to have their leaders with Nellies

But a general does not need to be on a nelly to be heard by his soldiers . That's my resume .

NB : what about the famous case during the battle of Beth Zacharia during which the Nelly of a Seleucid "high ranking" officer was killed, no sub generals with the nellies  :D ok I'll flee

lionheartrjc

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2023, 05:55:05 PM »
What about the famous case during the battle of Beth Zacharia during which the Nelly of a Seleucid "high ranking" officer was killed, no sub generals with the nellies  :D ok I'll flee

Actually it was the brother of the Judah Maccabee, Eleazar Avaran, who died in combat with a Seleucid war elephant!

Richard

ShrubMiK

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2023, 06:51:46 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall "Mr. Stability" bahdahbum spends quite a bit of time in these forums arguing for lists to be changed ;)

lionheartrjc

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2023, 06:56:57 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall "Mr. Stability" bahdahbum spends quite a bit of time in these forums arguing for lists to be changed ;)
I think he just spends quite a bit of time arguing.....   ::)

badhabum

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2023, 07:35:49 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall "Mr. Stability" bahdahbum spends quite a bit of time in these forums arguing for lists to be changed ;)

Well, you should not mix  "list changes" and "Rules modification"

Two very different concepts

Rules are now more or less stable.

Army lists are nowhere considered stable as the angry reactions from Belgium, France and Greece should have shown you.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 07:43:44 PM by badhabum »

badhabum

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2023, 07:38:38 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall "Mr. Stability" bahdahbum spends quite a bit of time in these forums arguing for lists to be changed ;)
I think he just spends quite a bit of time arguing.....   ::)

So can you develop before I take offense

nikgaukroger

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2023, 08:19:36 PM »
What about the famous case during the battle of Beth Zacharia during which the Nelly of a Seleucid "high ranking" officer was killed, no sub generals with the nellies  :D ok I'll flee

Actually it was the brother of the Judah Maccabee, Eleazar Avaran, who died in combat with a Seleucid war elephant!

Richard

Details, shmetails  ;)
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

tarnowski1

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2023, 08:28:43 PM »
Hy to all

Frankly I'll make a comment and present my point of view as positively as possible but this discussion really pisses me off. We have had that discussion a few years ago and decisions were reached. Now that same discussion starts again so are the rules stable or not ?  Yes everyone can have a change of heart but this debate has been solved, should be closed but in MEG nothing is ever closed sand that is annoying.

Now should we have generals mounted on Nellies to encourage their Nellies to fight ? My answer is negative. Whatever language the general speaks he does not speak Nelly. he speaks to the human beings that drives the Nelly, that fights from the Howdah or sitting on the nelly .

All type of generals, on foot (beware he may get trampled) on donkey, in a cart, a chariot, a horse or a camel may upgrade cards, heal "wounds" which is basically restoring order in the TUG and convincing the boys that all is OK . The only thing they may not do is give a bonus in the fight by showing the exemple which is something that can be done from the ground, on a horse, a chariot and so on as the Nelly will not care but the soldiers will be encouraged by the presence of their leader be he on foot or on a nelly.

So the simple solution is : every general can upgrade the coulour of the die of a nelly file . Make it easy it is all a game.

After all we threat all generals the same, they all move as light cavalry even in full armour, on foot on CH on nelly so be simple. Same for everyone otherwise we might open the can : a foot general moves as a SUG, a CH must pay more attention to terrain and if your leader is in full armour he will be slow ..That's not what we want do we ?

Can on foot generals upgrade battle dice from a TUG of CL ...yes so what's the specific problem for Nellies ?

Generals can upgrade the dice for BWG, even if he is on a camel !

So KISS solution, OK let the leaders, ALL of them upgrade Nellie's dice . If the main force of a specific army is not Nellies, the player might be better using his general with his good units.

Indians might choose to have their leaders with Nellies

But a general does not need to be on a nelly to be heard by his soldiers . That's my resume .

NB : what about the famous case during the battle of Beth Zacharia during which the Nelly of a Seleucid "high ranking" officer was killed, no sub generals with the nellies  :D ok I'll flee

shockingly I'm with the Kiss crowd here, crazy crazy nights!

either any/all Generals gets to add to elephant combats or none. list agnostic.

or to put it another way only armies that have elephants may add the general bonus to an elephant combat :) or not.

mmm it appears to be raining frogs

regards
Matt

Princeps

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2023, 10:10:05 PM »
Hello,

First, the topic : personally I do not feel Elephants need a boost with a General, and the (as yet uncountered) arguments of Badhabum strike me as common sense : a human can not lead an elephant by example. Pics or it did not happen.

Now, if players of Nellies (which, for full disclosure, I am not) feel cheated, which would be perfectly legitimate, and therefore it is considered that things should be modified and rules destabilized, then KISS seems the only common sense approach.


Second the discussion : Holy Mother of whatever, what is wrong with some of you people? Here I thought we could have a constructive, argued for, respectful discussion between adults, in your language mind you ... Is this the best that can be produced, snide remarks, deformed comments and veiled insults?

Now some of you might not be aware of the full extent of the discontent on the continent, but for the sake of transparency let's air all of this : the proposed modifications did not, as should be clear enough from what has been written here for the past month, go down easily on the continent, and the constructive remarks were taken into account, it has to be noted.

That was fortunate, given that we were (and in many ways still are) on the verge of irremediable dissensions, the main culprit for this being the perceived arrogance, passive agression and all-around nastiness of some people, a highly controversial topic that the last few comments do nothing to rebuke. Now, being a perception, it might of course be subjective, but saying that does not make it wrong, only actions can change a perception. At some point, anyone will be fed up with the kind of reception presently displayed.

What was already said to some and that I feel should be clear to everyone is this :

The reality we face is not the same as in the UK : less players willing to invest in 15mm armies, paint them and then learn that the army they gathered is now modified beyond what they wanted to play. Our community is small, and although some instrumental people permit it to thrive thanks to their commitment to organize, incentive and communicate, we have seen an haemorrhage of players for the past few years (20 to 30%) who, when asked, mentioned rules instability as the primary, if not sole, reason for quitting.

In this context, some (fortunately still few) are clamoring for a definitive freeze on the 2023 lists! Let us call it as it is : we are facing a schism of biblical proportions, and only the selfless dedication of these aforementioned players, including coming to explain that on this forum, keeps it at bay.

So now let me ask you this: do you really feel that these circumstances call for the kind of talking we have witnessed, towards mind you one the 3 pillars of continental MeG?

I think it would behoove us all to raise above this kind of pettiness and keep with civil discourse between adults respectful of each other.

Best,
Antoine

nikgaukroger

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2023, 10:20:37 PM »
Think there probably is a case that elephants don't need anything to boost them, but equally I do offer hear and read that quite a few players think they don't quite work. Not me though.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

nikgaukroger

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2023, 10:30:39 PM »
In respect of your other point I have removed a post that was ill advised.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

ShrubMiK

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Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2023, 11:40:33 PM »
I hope my comment wasn’t taken as arrogant, passive aggressive, snide etc. If so, apologies. It was intended as a teasing way of expressing a disagreement and a bit of frustration.

So let me just say, very plainly and hopefully politely, I am quite happy for there to be a period of list stability in lists… but can we please be consistent with what we are asking for?