Alexandrian Macedonians

[SteveO]

Upgrading an army such as Alexander's still further, notably the phalanx, while absolutely justifiable IMO would effectively change the nature of the army to something ahistorical. As a combined arms force you need most if not all of its constituent parts. That would be pretty hard to do if it was even more expensive.

It is not the same as more one-dimensional armies such as the Spartans or Swiss.

I rationalise the apparent discrepancy by saying the Alexandrian army seems to work in its current form against its historical opponents.

[lionheartrjc]

Upgrading an army such as Alexander's still further, notably the phalanx, while absolutely justifiable IMO would effectively change the nature of the army to something ahistorical. As a combined arms force you need most if not all of its constituent parts. That would be pretty hard to do if it was even more expensive.

It is not the same as more one-dimensional armies such as the Spartans or Swiss.

I rationalise the apparent discrepancy by saying the Alexandrian army seems to work in its current form against its historical opponents.

I am proposing to allow the foot companions from 332 BCE to be upgraded to Superior.  I happen to agree with you that this wouldn't improve the army in a competition sense but it seems absolutely justifiable from a historical perspective.

Richard

[nikgaukroger]

With the (probable) increase in cost of Exceptionals (i.e. the Agema in this list) this could end up as a pretty small army if you choose all the upgrades. Could be effective if you have the skill to use it, but also could be a trap.

[GPAKOS]

I think that the most underestimated unit in this army remain the agrianians

correct if i am wrong, but they cannot assist in the cavalry or infantry charges in the pivot role they seemed to have played, now they are evaporated if contacted in open terrain even if they are side to side edge with a Cavalry or infantry Tug

My suggestion is maybe giving them the option of unprotected TuG with the same quality and weapons, along with fleet of foot

otherwise from the current classification i suppose that they are intepreted as usefull only within terrain or other purposes, but even experienced shooting does not make them a game changer unit in that field

[lionheartrjc]

The Agrianians appear to have been skirmishers. I cannot find any evidence to the contrary or to suggest they could stand up in a fight on their own. 

They did support the cavalry, but skirmishers can already do that, either by advancing in front of the cavalry, or by shooting from a flank.  Get them within 1BW of an unprotected enemy skirmisher unit (or a poor skirmisher unit) and their experienced shooting can do damage (being protected themselves).  Also remember the optional +1 for skirmishing or running away on the variable movement dice.  And in terrain, they can give a lot of troops a big headache.

Although they were good, I am not sure they were a game changer in any of Alexander's battles.

[nikgaukroger]

And in terrain, they can give a lot of troops a big headache.

Absolutely. They're Superior so even better than the lanciarii I am so fond of in my Imperial Romans. Superior, Protected, ME, Experienced Javelin, Shoot & Charge - what's not to like; if I did the army I'd be looking to have some every time 

[badhabum]

With the (probable) increase in cost of Exceptionals (i.e. the Agema in this list) this could end up as a pretty small army if you choose all the upgrades. Could be effective if you have the skill to use it, but also could be a trap.

Remember my Nikephorian army 

I do have an Alexmac compo and it is 7 or 8 TUGs and it's quality . Yes you need to know what you do with it and you pay any mistakes, miscalculation or bad dice rather quickly .

It's the beauty of it and I can live with it

[badhabum]

The Agrianians appear to have been skirmishers. I cannot find any evidence to the contrary or to suggest they could stand up in a fight on their own. 

They did support the cavalry, but skirmishers can already do that, either by advancing in front of the cavalry, or by shooting from a flank.  Get them within 1BW of an unprotected enemy skirmisher unit (or a poor skirmisher unit) and their experienced shooting can do damage (being protected themselves).  Also remember the optional +1 for skirmishing or running away on the variable movement dice.  And in terrain, they can give a lot of troops a big headache.

Although they were good, I am not sure they were a game changer in any of Alexander's battles.

I use them by 9 in terrain if possible. Except vs LRR or EIR/IR flexible and some melee expert loose order UGs it works rather well

[GPAKOS]

Well if you want to use the in front of the cavalry you need to go 4bw instead of 5bw, so you lose mobility on the striking force of the list

if you use them in rough terrain due to tugs vs sugs an average hillmen vs them will be green vs green in the charge phase & and the same in melee, the points for a group of 9 of hillmen is 540 and for a SUG of Agrianes 549, the first counts on the breaking point of the army and can be deployed and stand most infantry TuG charges, whereas the other cannot

last but not least the hillmen break on 4,5 whereas the agrianes on 3,5 and all of that if you are lucky to get terrain to deply them or sacrifice cavalry movement

for an average player it becomes impossible to play them or useless, whereas it should be a vital unit in the army

[badhabum]

Well if you want to use the in front of the cavalry you need to go 4bw instead of 5bw, so you lose mobility on the striking force of the list

if you use them in rough terrain due to tugs vs sugs an average hillmen vs them will be green vs green in the charge phase & and the same in melee, the points for a group of 9 of hillmen is 540 and for a SUG of Agrianes 549, the first counts on the breaking point of the army and can be deployed and stand most infantry TuG charges, whereas the other cannot

last but not least the hillmen break on 4,5 whereas the agrianes on 3,5 and all of that if you are lucky to get terrain to deply them or sacrifice cavalry movement

for an average player it becomes impossible to play them or useless, whereas it should be a vital unit in the army

Hy George

I fear we might disagree on this one,

Agrinians are skirmishers and compared to other skirmishers they are a Rolls Royce. But as they are not loos flexible but SK, they should be used as SK and also shoot and hurt the opponent before engaging it.

You need a part of luck while shooting and also learn the difficult art of using skirmishers (remember last time an AlexMac expedition army was played at Athens ? As I predicted it won the tournament )

So I am not 100 % with you and perhaps a solution would be a flexible loose foot formation but that does not exist in the rules - for now -

[nikgaukroger]

and also learn the difficult art of using skirmishers

Spot on.

Getting the best from skirmishers is something you need to work on but can bring rewards and then you can really utilise skirmishers like the Agrianians to effect.

IMO a lot of players rather dismiss skirmishers; their loss.

[SteveO]

Well Richard, I certainly cannot argue against you upgrading Alexander's phalangites - if they are not Superior who is? Maybe the army can be made to work on the tabletop, after all even I have had some success with my Swiss army, but that wasn't my point.

While my Swiss army is minuscule, it is historically proportioned and representative. I am pretty sure taking all the historically justifiable upgrades to the Alexandrian will rule out fielding an army in a normal 10k point game that resembles that used by Alexander.

This is meant as a comment rather than criticism, especially as we are not forced to run the whole army as Superior. I enjoy list design as much as anyone but I sometimes wonder if we have too much choice and stray away from what is historical, or at least plausible. The problem we have of course is that ancient warfare is so inadequately recorded that there is a myriad of opinions - an issue you have been dealing with ever since you put out the draft 2024 lists.😊

[martymagnificent]

I would allow the Hypaspists an exceptional option as well.

Martin

[SteveO]

+1

[GPAKOS]

Ok so we almost all do not know how to use correctly the skirmishers

Can you explain to me then in MeG rules set how we would represent the right cavalry charge at Gaugamela? How can the skirmishers contribute in the melee battle in open terrain?

Did they leave the companions to fight the Persian cavalry alone, while agrianes were shooting from a safe distance? Could we represent them as an overlap in the melee on side to side edge with the companions? Could we without getting in contact with the numerical superior Persian cavalry?

Please explain...as maybe it is my limited knowledge on this