2024 Carrocio , Ark of the covenant

[Onurbm]

Carrocio & Ark of the Covenant - Army characteristic - Mobile superior camps have the ability to recover a wound from a single UG within 10 BW each turn without needing a card.

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Weird ... this gives the player one free wound remove , under control of the player at extended range . To me this is magic in an historical game and not matching the few texts on the subject ... good for SAGA or Warhammer But not MEG

This does not match my understanding on the text on this subject. I read , « true believer » were sometimes ( often ? ) able to rally around a ( believed, trusted ) semi-magical item . But certainly not under control of the general.

May I suggest a different approach more in line with this , close proximity , uncontrolled,  aspect of the thing and the fact ( ?) that it applied to «  true believers » in close proximity with « magic believed item » but not automatic to all  and definitely not controlled by the general . Does not work for unbelievers  tribes or mercenaries.

Suggestion :
Create , for a cost, the characteristic «  true believer » An stick to the already proven game mechanics .

A the end of turn , step 6.1 , when within same range as the one used by a legendary general to remove wounds, may draw a card for each   UG . Should the card be yellow or red then true believers UG receive the same effect as if a general were assigning the card within range. If other hue , no effect.

Notice that the effet IMO is more in line with what is described about the Ark :
- Sometime no effect at all ... or not immediate
- Sometime all within range will be bolstered ... or only some

I strongly disagree with the player-controlled side of 10BW on one UG ... too much like magic controlled by a wizard player.... GANDALF THE WHITE come to us.

All the best , let me know

[lionheartrjc]

Currently nobody takes a mobile superior camp.  The aim of the change is to give the player a reason for selecting a mobile superior camp.  The risk is that the camp has to be nearer the front line so has greater risk of being sacked.

The historical justification is the religious element that made armies believe their cause more.  Okay that can be argued to be magic, but magic was widely believed in ancient times and doesn't make the effect any less real. 

For clarity:
1. Camps are treated as loose infantry, protected. 
2. The effect won't apply to allies.

A less severe change would be to allow one general to recover a wound on a single UG with a colour card one less than that normally required.  Alternatively the effect of sacking the camp could be increased by upgrading the colour of the KAB tests - like elephants routing.

p.s.  I won't be introducing any troop characteristic or any change to the turn sequence.
p.p.s.  These are currently proposals, nothing set in stone yet.


Richard

[nikgaukroger]

Alternatively the effect of sacking the camp could be increased by upgrading the colour of the KAB tests - like elephants routing.

I like this one 

[Jilu]

Currently nobody takes a mobile superior camp.  The aim of the change is to give the player a reason for selecting a mobile superior camp.  The risk is that the camp has to be nearer the front line so has greater risk of being sacked.

what about average or poor mobile camps ? they offer no real advantage.
Perhaps allow them to flee if charged?

[nikgaukroger]

Currently nobody takes a mobile superior camp.  The aim of the change is to give the player a reason for selecting a mobile superior camp.  The risk is that the camp has to be nearer the front line so has greater risk of being sacked.

what about average or poor mobile camps ? they offer no real advantage.
Perhaps allow them to flee if charged?

Although not used in every (or even most) games, the ability to move a Mobile camp can be useful. Certainly for Poor the cost is negligible and if I had the option (and the few points) I'd take it every time.

A fleeing camp sounds highly improbable IMO.

FWIW I think there may be an argument for just 2 qualities of camp. A basic type and the "upgraded" type which get an additional ability - to use mobile as an example, you either have a basic one or the "carroccio" type, no inbetween variety.

[Onurbm]

«  currently nobody takes a superior mobile camp «  .... True .... Just as this does not match anything in real history .
The reference is history , not the categories set as game tools .

My opinion stays : whatever you do , no player controlled magic please .

By the way , increasing the KAB effet of a sacked camp is likely to accelerate game end ... I like it too.

Ps : I do take very often mobile camp or fortified camp ... even going to reducing some second rate unit to poor unskilled to get the points
Pps : I understand those are proposals. We had some heated discussion on one french Whatsapp group , preparing  tommorow's tournament in RUEIL . As you indirectly suggest I intend to encourage those that can write in English to express their opinion .

All the best

[Princeps]

Currently nobody takes a mobile superior camp.  The aim of the change is to give the player a reason for selecting a mobile superior camp.  The risk is that the camp has to be nearer the front line so has greater risk of being sacked.

Having an option does not mean people have to use it ... in the same vein, the existence of Middle Formative Mes-American (6201) is great, and I do not think I will see it in a tournament, even less an open, in my lifetime

The historical justification is the religious element that made armies believe their cause more.

This could be a justification, but what about all other instances where that could be justified as well, for example a crusade army's fragment of the Cross (even if not genuine, people would be none the wiser and believe in it all the same, just like the magic you referred to) ? IS that not opening the door of bringing more 'magic" and shenanigans ? I mean I like SAGA, but maybe not in a MeG game.

Also, I saw no italian lists with the possibility of Superior Mobile camp (whether in Byzantium or Holy Roman Empire), is it intended to add that possibility ?

[nikgaukroger]

Also, I saw no italian lists with the possibility of Superior Mobile camp (whether in Byzantium or Holy Roman Empire), is it intended to add that possibility ?

From Richard's draft changes list:

56 – Holy Roman Empire
5601 – Early Communal Italian - Carroccio.
5602 – Papal Italian – Carroccio.
5604 – Hungarian – Carroccio in 1167 CE.
5607 – Later Communal Italian – Carroccio.
5608 – Imperial German – Carroccio at Bouvines. Angevin allies in 1214 CE.
5615 – Early Italian Condotta – Carroccio.

[LawrenceG]

Currently nobody takes a mobile superior camp.  The aim of the change is to give the player a reason for selecting a mobile superior camp. 

An alternative would be to decrease their points cost. Make it cheap enough and people will take it.


Another alternative could be they add 1 to your break point but are worth 2 TUGs if sacked.

[philfigo]

the "magic" aspect made people more fanatical than immortal
maybe the way forward would be to make UGs fanatic within a radius (8 or 6 BW) but if the camp is sacked, loss of fanatic with aggravated KAB

[Jilu]

the "magic" aspect made people more fanatical than immortal
maybe the way forward would be to make UGs fanatic within a radius (8 or 6 BW) but if the camp is sacked, loss of fanatic with aggravated KAB

Well you can see things as they are "fanatic" when around the caraccio, they have a free recovery : less guys running away

it hink the option you propose would have dramatic consequences

[nikgaukroger]

it hink the option you propose would have dramatic consequences

Probably bump the cost of the camp to about 1500 points for a start 

[philfigo]

less guys running away, yes that's understandable
and 1500 points is indeed not possible

[Onurbm]

And an oversight .

In battles where it was engaged I see different items not located in the same places.
- bagage ( food, shelter, camp followers )
- carrocio and his guard brought forward to bolster army morale

Should be two different things in two different locations .

Carrocio might be worth a TUG  if  lost and act as a morale booster ( fanatics ? +1 morale ? Other ? ) to any friendly TUG in contact.

Ok this does not solve the non existent chimera called superior bagage

🥳

[Jilu]

but why must there be a superior bagage...?