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Author Topic: Pursuing into a flank  (Read 1316 times)

nikgaukroger

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2023, 01:13:13 PM »
because it's a discussion around a point of rules that needs a clear ruling for everyone

I don't think anyone is going to argue with that  ;D

RJC is back from hols next week so I'll see if he and I can have a discussion and decide what to rule on this soon.
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nikgaukroger

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2023, 06:58:54 PM »
Forgot to comment on this.

4J is concerning the mouvement phase 4.3 and the melee combat that will occur in 5.2


If the actions allowed by 4J are not considered to create a combat until the fighting phase, I think it would mean that a unit contacted by one of the 4J moves could still make M moves. It would also apply to contact created in the shooting phase (not common, but possible).
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

nikgaukroger

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2023, 07:01:33 PM »
But as I said earlier, with any luck RJC and I can talk next week and sort this out.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

ShrubMiK

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2023, 09:51:45 AM »
I don't think it is unreasonable that a unit contacted as a result of pursuit could get a chance to respond, cards permitting (and of course they may also suffer bad things as a result of KaB test).

And I would hope we don't end up in a situation where e.g. two opposing units each break their frontal opponent and end up in only front corner to front corner contact; and then whoever moves first contacts the flank of the opponent and the opponent is denied a chance to respond effectively.

AlecJH

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2024, 08:40:15 AM »
Regarding my original post was any official conclusion/consensus reached on this question?
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lionheartrjc

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2024, 09:39:20 AM »
Regarding my original post was any official conclusion/consensus reached on this question?

MF1 and MF2 moves can be made in SP 5.5, but DO NOT cancel the flank charge.  Sorry if this got overlooked in the subsequent discussion.

Richard

Modified response because I got it wrong!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 06:56:15 AM by lionheartrjc »

AlecJH

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2024, 05:09:39 PM »
No problem, thank you.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire

LawrenceG

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2024, 12:22:00 AM »
Regarding my original post was any official conclusion/consensus reached on this question?

MF1 and MF2 moves can be made in SP 5.5, which can negate the effect of a flank attack from a pursuit in the fighting phase.  Sorry if this got overlooked in the subsequent discussion.

Richard

I thought they wouldn't negate the effect of a flank attack because criteria to qualify for a flank charge are applied at the time you charge, not at the time you fight. (Which SAH implied assent to in the other thread on pursuit hitting enemy, if I understood him correctly)

lionheartrjc

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2024, 06:55:14 AM »
Regarding my original post was any official conclusion/consensus reached on this question?

MF1 and MF2 moves can be made in SP 5.5, which can negate the effect of a flank attack from a pursuit in the fighting phase.  Sorry if this got overlooked in the subsequent discussion.

Richard

Yes, you are quite right.  I am still getting confused by the rule.  My only excuse is I have had a busy week.  I have modified my answer above.



I thought they wouldn't negate the effect of a flank attack because criteria to qualify for a flank charge are applied at the time you charge, not at the time you fight. (Which SAH implied assent to in the other thread on pursuit hitting enemy, if I understood him correctly)

AlecJH

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2024, 07:59:04 AM »
Having considered the ruling there’s just one point about the clarification I am still unsure of regarding MF1 moves that I’d like further clarification of please just so it’s 100% clear.

Where, as in my original case, my opponent did an MF1 move to place a cataphract base opposite and in front to front edge contact with my left-hand Auxilia base that wouldn’t otherwise have had an opposing file to fight are you now saying that there will not be a combat in the following charge phase between those two bases as they weren’t in contact at the point in time the Auxilia charged or are you saying there will be but the cataphract will be subject to the flank penalty?
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire

lionheartrjc

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2024, 02:46:11 PM »
Having considered the ruling there’s just one point about the clarification I am still unsure of regarding MF1 moves that I’d like further clarification of please just so it’s 100% clear.

Where, as in my original case, my opponent did an MF1 move to place a cataphract base opposite and in front to front edge contact with my left-hand Auxilia base that wouldn’t otherwise have had an opposing file to fight are you now saying that there will not be a combat in the following charge phase between those two bases as they weren’t in contact at the point in time the Auxilia charged or are you saying there will be but the cataphract will be subject to the flank penalty?

My view is that you fight the files as they are - so there will be a combat between the additional two bases, but it will be subject to the flank penalty.  You judge flank charges as the position was when the pursuit was moved.  This is not entirely satisfactory (to be honest pursuits in the shooting/fighting phase aren't fully covered for all the nuances that can occur) but seems reasonable.

(It might be easier to ban MF1/MF2 moves where contacted by pursuers in the shooting/fighting phase until the combat has been fought, but the rules don't say that!).

Richard

Jilu

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2024, 04:15:31 PM »
so.. You can turn the bases but opponent still get the flankbonus  for initial combat but not melee?
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lionheartrjc

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2024, 07:21:03 AM »
so.. You can turn the bases but opponent still get the flankbonus  for initial combat but not melee?
That is how I would play it.

Jilu

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2024, 08:16:29 PM »
Thank you now we have a clear ruling on the matter.
But then what can the bases that are contacted use as charge modifiers?
Does shieldwall, integral shooter count?
Does the LS standing to receive count ?
etc ...
Liberate me ex infernis

lionheartrjc

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Re: Pursuing into a flank
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2024, 10:03:43 AM »
Thank you now we have a clear ruling on the matter.
But then what can the bases that are contacted use as charge modifiers?
Does shieldwall, integral shooter count?
Does the LS standing to receive count ?
etc ...

Any base contacted in the flank cannot claim or cancel opponents factors.
Long spear standing to receive can be claimed by troops hit by pursuers as long as it is not in the flank.
Integral shooter cannot be claimed by pursuers, but could be claimed by troops hits by pursuers as long as it is not in the flank.
Shieldwall can be claimed by the pursuers because it won't be in the current phase.  It can be claimed by troops hit be pursuers as long as it is not in the flank.

Hope that is clear (and is correct!).

Richard