Preferred Claims, Shatter and flank

[Cypher]

Hi!

1) My Devastating chargers contacted Elephant in the rear, did I have +claim for DC? or rear of elephant is still elephant? Can I use shatter?
2) Same, my mounted short spears charges flank of pikemen, is it +1 or +0?
3) My Devastating chargers received rear charge, can they achieve shatter?

[badhabum]

Hy

1) Their general claim vs nellies is and remains 0 with a + 4 for flank/rear attack and the general rule is that no one can shatter nellies.

2) your CAV has  +1 because you are not to the front of those nasty pikes and get +4 for flank attack

3) it may seems astonishing but yes it can shatter the opponent as nothing prohibit's it

[Cypher]

Thanks for answer.

What's the difference between 1 and 2? Why DC is +0 vs EL works and exception on SSp not used?
Because DC have straight value and SSp has "except"?

By the way, it looks like DC in elephant's flank is +3 because of general claim "Cv, Cm, Ch, or El vs. foot not standing to receive", right?

[tarnowski1]

Thanks for answer.

What's the difference between 1 and 2? Why DC is +0 vs EL works and exception on SSp not used?
Because DC have straight value and SSp has "except"?

By the way, it looks like DC in elephant's flank is +3 because of general claim "Cv, Cm, Ch, or El vs. foot not standing to receive", right?

from the clarifications, though this seems not to have made it to the new QRS or the amended rules.

'QRS Add "and cancellation effects" after All below claims... in the heading to both Preferred Claims table. As written you cannot claim SSp, CL, etc. claims when making a flank/rear charge against pike, etc. who have stood to receive as it does not specify that it only prevents them if making a frontal contact However, diagram on page 151 has a flank charging unit claiming the SSp. The diagram is correct and the "cancellation effects" only apply to contacts to the front of the file; a flank/rear charge attracts the full claim. This also applies to the Melee Combat claim for mounted/chariot Melee Expert.'

[badhabum]

This might need a bit of clarification from NIK and Richard . I based my answer on the new PDF and it's missing as Tarnoski1 wrote!

[nikgaukroger]

Thanks for answer.

What's the difference between 1 and 2? Why DC is +0 vs EL works and exception on SSp not used?
Because DC have straight value and SSp has "except"?

By the way, it looks like DC in elephant's flank is +3 because of general claim "Cv, Cm, Ch, or El vs. foot not standing to receive", right?

from the clarifications, though this seems not to have made it to the new QRS or the amended rules.

'QRS Add "and cancellation effects" after All below claims... in the heading to both Preferred Claims table. As written you cannot claim SSp, CL, etc. claims when making a flank/rear charge against pike, etc. who have stood to receive as it does not specify that it only prevents them if making a frontal contact However, diagram on page 151 has a flank charging unit claiming the SSp. The diagram is correct and the "cancellation effects" only apply to contacts to the front of the file; a flank/rear charge attracts the full claim. This also applies to the Melee Combat claim for mounted/chariot Melee Expert.'

This bit not doing it for you I take it?

[tarnowski1]

Thanks for answer.

What's the difference between 1 and 2? Why DC is +0 vs EL works and exception on SSp not used?
Because DC have straight value and SSp has "except"?

By the way, it looks like DC in elephant's flank is +3 because of general claim "Cv, Cm, Ch, or El vs. foot not standing to receive", right?

from the clarifications, though this seems not to have made it to the new QRS or the amended rules.

'QRS Add "and cancellation effects" after All below claims... in the heading to both Preferred Claims table. As written you cannot claim SSp, CL, etc. claims when making a flank/rear charge against pike, etc. who have stood to receive as it does not specify that it only prevents them if making a frontal contact However, diagram on page 151 has a flank charging unit claiming the SSp. The diagram is correct and the "cancellation effects" only apply to contacts to the front of the file; a flank/rear charge attracts the full claim. This also applies to the Melee Combat claim for mounted/chariot Melee Expert.'

This bit not doing it for you I take it?

ta, oddly not on the qrs, I thought, I had printed out of the new pdf. Clearly user error on my part

[nikgaukroger]

This is from the currently available rules PDF. Yell if you think you have that version but it isn't the same.

[LawrenceG]

So
a charging lancer into the flank of elephants is  +4
but
a dev charger into the flank is +2 and +4 ?

[badhabum]

So
a charging lancer into the flank of elephants is  +4
but
a dev charger into the flank is +2 and +4 ?

CL : right

DC : wrong . Foot and mounted DC are always 0 vs nellies so will get 0 vs nellies, + 4 for the flank . Where did you find a +2 vs Nellies ?

Foot DC : If in 2+ ranks themselves: +2 vs. any foot; 0 vs. EL, or vs. CL in good going;+1 vs. others.

Mounted DC : If in 2+ ranks themselves: +1 vs. any except standing to receive** foot LSp or Pk; or vs.EL or BWg.

[LawrenceG]

So
a charging lancer into the flank of elephants is  +4
but
a dev charger into the flank is +2 and +4 ?

CL : right

DC : wrong . Foot and mounted DC are always 0 vs nellies so will get 0 vs nellies, + 4 for the flank . Where did you find a +2 vs Nellies ?

Foot DC : If in 2+ ranks themselves: +2 vs. any foot; 0 vs. EL, or vs. CL in good going;+1 vs. others.

Mounted DC : If in 2+ ranks themselves: +1 vs. any except standing to receive** foot LSp or Pk; or vs.EL or BWg.

I was only looking at mounted DC. According to my understanding, "except standing to receive** foot ... EL ..." is a "claim cancellation" which therefore only applies when the EL is fighting to its front. Then I misread the +1 as +2.
So now I think it should be +1 and +4 for mounted DC.