list 2602 early Achaemenid satrapal army and 2601 related

[badhabum]

Reading the limitations for the immortals I got confused

In the 2601 list( Royal army ) you may regrade up to half  and no more of the sparabara as immortals, so you need one sparabara TUG for each immortal TUG or so I read it.

If I want to take 3 immortals TUGS I need to take 6 TUGS and regrade 3 of them.

But when I read the 2602 list I got confused.That list may have up to 16 bases of sparabara. All could be regraded to immortals  but it is mentioned that the number of immortals cannot exceed the number of sparabara .

So may all 16 satrapal sparabara be regraded with none of them remaining "common sparabara" and all become 16 immortals and the meaning is that you can max have 16 immortals or am I missing something ?

I must admit it seems rather strange to have all sparabara regraded as immortals and is not under obligation of taking other sparabaras  while the royal army may upgrade "only" 50% of it's sparabaras as "immortals" . But I might have misread something .

[badhabum]

I will try to answer my own post :

List 2601 : when written "up to half" in regrade sparabara to immortal does it mean "up to half " the sparabara or the "up to half" is linked to the fact that the first rank is "half "the unit . it is very confusing

[Princeps]

Hello,

That is an interesting question. My interpretation of the lists as written would be this (I will only talk about front rank, given you always have to take the same amount of rear rank):

• Royal Army 2601:


• Must take at least 6 "regular" Persian
• May not take more than 24 "regular" Persian
• May regrade up to half as Immortals
• So, no more than 12 Immortals, and that means having 12 "regular" Persian
• Satrapal Army 2602:


• Must take at least 4 "regular" Persian
• May not take more than 8 "regular" Persian
• May regrade up to 8 as Immortals
• So it would be possible to field only Immortals, without having "regular" Persian


It seems peculiar, at the very least, that satrapal armies would be able to field a higher proportion of Immortals than the Royal Army, when they were as much an elite unit as they were the pretorians of the emperor, especially in light of this quote of the Army Book: "Satraps might be given divisions of Immortals to command (such as Mardonius in 479 BCE)".

Is this interpretation correct? If so, is this conclusion intended?

Best regards,
Antoine

[nikgaukroger]

• Royal Army 2601:


• Must take at least 6 "regular" Persian
• May not take more than 24 "regular" Persian
• May regrade up to half as Immortals
• So, no more than 12 Immortals, and that means having 12 "regular" Persian
• Satrapal Army 2602:


• Must take at least 4 "regular" Persian
• May not take more than 8 "regular" Persian
• May regrade up to 8 as Immortals
• So it would be possible to field only Immortals, without having "regular" Persian

This is correct.

[nikgaukroger]

The list numbers have been this way since the 2021 lists when the proportions of Sparabara/Immortals was introduced into these 2 lists and so I would say that this is intended.

[nikgaukroger]

I would hazard a guess that the rationale is that Royal armies were rather large and so even large numbers of Immortals would not be a huge proportion, whilst Satrapal armies were smaller and so a good sized corps of Immortals would be a proportionally higher part of the army. Don't know enough to say whether having only Immortals as the sparabara for a Satrapal army is valid, but I'll trust RJC on it 

[badhabum]

Small correction if I read it correctly

Royal Army 2601:
Must take at least 6 "regular" Persian FRONT RANK so 12 in total, rear rank included
May not take more than 24 "regular" Persian FRONT RANK so 48 in total rear rank included
May regrade up to half as Immortals
So, no more than 12 Immortals FRONT RANK + 12 rear rank , and that means having 12 "regular" Persian + 12 rear rank

Which dubbles it for the royal army 

[badhabum]

I would hazard a guess that the rationale is that Royal armies were rather large and so even large numbers of Immortals would not be a huge proportion, whilst Satrapal armies were smaller and so a good sized corps of Immortals would be a proportionally higher part of the army. Don't know enough to say whether having only Immortals as the sparabara for a Satrapal army is valid, but I'll trust RJC on it 

It's funny to have nearly as many skilled shooter in a satrapal army and a royal army while not having a minimum sparabara contingent in the satrapal army that must be "regular" and stay regular . Ok so it is .

[philfigo]

I think you forgot that in the list 2601
you have 2 types of sparabaras (Persian and Iranian)
so if you have 8 immortals you have to complete with 8 Iranian sparabaras
in this list you can have from 4 to 24 sparabaras (Persian + Iranian)
only Persian sparabaras can be upgraded to immortals
which seems very realistic and gives a lot of options

[badhabum]

Sory, only persian or median sparabara may be upgraded. The Iranians are not to be taken into account. And you have it backwards. In order to take 8 immortals, you first need to have 16 persian/median sparabara as you UPGRADE 50 % of them 

But my point is that it seems very strange and unrealistic to have the satrapal army with nearly the same firepower ( in terms of skilled shooters) than the Royal army and with less constraint . 

I do not know if it was intended but an interesting side effect. If you put a rebellious satrap vs the royal army and full power of the immortals, they are very equal in terms of firepower which seems very very "bizarre" 

[lionheartrjc]

But my point is that it seems very strange and unrealistic to have the satrapal army with nearly the same firepower ( in terms of skilled shooters) than the Royal army and with less constraint . 

I do not know if it was intended but an interesting side effect. If you put a rebellious satrap vs the royal army and full power of the immortals, they are very equal in terms of firepower which seems very very "bizarre" 

If you think about it, this is not how army lists work.    They are representative of the armies that were fielded, not the total resources available to the state - in order to give equal points forces. 

The ability to include immortals in a satrapal army list is based upon the force that Xerxes left in the command of Mardonius in 479 BCE.  As far as I am aware, this is the only occasion that a satrap was given the command of immortals, but there may be others.

Richard

[philfigo]

Sory, only persian or median sparabara may be upgraded. The Iranians are not to be taken into account. And you have it backwards. In order to take 8 immortals, you first need to have 16 persian/median sparabara as you UPGRADE 50 % of them 

But my point is that it seems very strange and unrealistic to have the satrapal army with nearly the same firepower ( in terms of skilled shooters) than the Royal army and with less constraint . 

I do not know if it was intended but an interesting side effect. If you put a rebellious satrap vs the royal army and full power of the immortals, they are very equal in terms of firepower which seems very very "bizarre" 

It is what I said only persian/median sparabara may be upgraded
just to keep in mind, 8 persian/median sparabara is the minimum and 16 the maximum

so YES if you want 8 immortals, you need to upgraded 50% of 16 persian/median sparabara (the maximum)
at the end you have 8 immortals (4 front rank and 4 rear rank) and 8 persian/median sparabara (4 front rank and 4 rear rank, the minimum)

[badhabum]

Sory, only persian or median sparabara may be upgraded. The Iranians are not to be taken into account. And you have it backwards. In order to take 8 immortals, you first need to have 16 persian/median sparabara as you UPGRADE 50 % of them 

But my point is that it seems very strange and unrealistic to have the satrapal army with nearly the same firepower ( in terms of skilled shooters) than the Royal army and with less constraint . 

I do not know if it was intended but an interesting side effect. If you put a rebellious satrap vs the royal army and full power of the immortals, they are very equal in terms of firepower which seems very very "bizarre" 

It is what I said only persian/median sparabara may be upgraded
just to keep in mind, 8 persian/median sparabara is the minimum and 16 the maximum

so YES if you want 8 immortals, you need to upgraded 50% of 16 persian/median sparabara (the maximum)
at the end you have 8 immortals (4 front rank and 4 rear rank) and 8 persian/median sparabara (4 front rank and 4 rear rank, the minimum)

I am talking MAXIMUS sorry

So the maximum sparabara front and rear ranks  ( persian ) is 48  so max 24 immortals but you need your 24 "other" infantry as well

The max immortals in the satrapal army is 16 without the mandatory sparabara :-)

[badhabum]

The ability to include immortals in a satrapal army list is based upon the force that Xerxes left in the command of Mardonius in 479 BCE.  As far as I am aware, this is the only occasion that a satrap was given the command of immortals, but there may be others.

Richard

Would it not be better to think about a separate list for that case ?

A specific list for Maradonius's army ? ( 2024 ? )

[lionheartrjc]

The ability to include immortals in a satrapal army list is based upon the force that Xerxes left in the command of Mardonius in 479 BCE.  As far as I am aware, this is the only occasion that a satrap was given the command of immortals, but there may be others.

Richard

Would it not be better to think about a separate list for that case ?

A specific list for Maradonius's army ? ( 2024 ? )

Possibly - the reason I haven't is that in theory other satraps might have commanded Immortals.