Holding Devastating Chargers and Shoot and Charge

[Mago]

Hi

Just asking if I have this correctly. A TUG of devastating chargers who also possess the shoot and charge characteristic. In the card phase at C3 a card is played to stop their forced charge. In the charge phase, their opponent TUG is prompted to charge them. I am presuming that as per the shoot and charge rules on page 207, the devastating chargers cannot use shoot and charge as it hasn't declared a charge (underlined in the rules). They would still claim devastating charger though as although they have been held, it is assumed that they 'charge' TUGS which are charging them.
Additionally, if the opposing TUG charges, can a charge marker be placed on the devastating chargers even though a card has been used previously to hold them, effectively wasting that card?

[lionheartrjc]

The TuG can still claim for Devastating Chargers.

If you stop a forced charge with a C3 prompted action, you cannot then prompt the same UG to charge with a C2 action.  (You cannot perform both of these prompted actions on the same UG in the same turn).

[LawrenceG]

Am I right in thinking you can't "shoot and charge" when you do a forced charge?

[lionheartrjc]

No.  You can declare the charge and shoot.  In the revised PDF edition I have clarified Shoot & Charge, but I would be interested what wording makes you think otherwise.

Richard

[nikgaukroger]

Yup, if you have subject to Forced Charge you can make the declaration for free and so get the benefits of Shoot & Charge if you have that - although apart from Charge Only shooters I'm not sure you'll ever have any Shoot & Charge types who are subject to Forced Charge.

I would note that if you were not to declare a Forced Charge and it was then triggered in the following sub-phase, the wording is that they are "marked" as opposed to "declared" and you can only get the benefits of Shoot & Charge when you "declare" a charge. There may, or may not be an intentional difference here.

[Mago]

Making me think on a Saturday morning! Thanks for the replies. So would a sensible sequence be to mark the charge for a devastating charger in C2 (declared free as per the characteristic) then remove the marker in C3 as a card is played to hold the charge? That way if an opponent TUG chargers them the devastating charger in C3 has an option of carrying on with their declared charge and thus using shoot and charge or remining stationary and receiving the charge, (retaining their dev charger bonus but losing shoot and charge) if a card is played to hold their charge. There may be a situation in which staying in position due to a fear of being flank charged for example, making the TUG reluctant to go further forward?
This would keep strictly to the sequence of actions in the charge phase.
 

[awat03]

I don't think you can do that. Once you have declared the charge you are committed. You would have to make a decision when you activate the unit if you are going to charge or hold it back.

[LawrenceG]

No.  You can declare the charge and shoot.  In the revised PDF edition I have clarified Shoot & Charge, but I would be interested what wording makes you think otherwise.

Richard

Yup, if you have subject to Forced Charge you can make the declaration for free and so get the benefits of Shoot & Charge if you have that - although apart from Charge Only shooters I'm not sure you'll ever have any Shoot & Charge types who are subject to Forced Charge.

I would note that if you were not to declare a Forced Charge and it was then triggered in the following sub-phase, the wording is that they are "marked" as opposed to "declared" and you can only get the benefits of Shoot & Charge when you "declare" a charge. There may, or may not be an intentional difference here.

If you are subject to forced charge, (as far as I can see) it's not automatically a free charge.  5.C.3 and 5.C.4 list the (I assume only) cases when a forced charge becomes free, or any charge is free. (loosely: whenever it's a bad idea to charge, or vs skirmishers).

I inferred that a forced charge is an undeclared charge you make because you didn't prevent it, therefore no shoot and charge (same reasoning as Nik). Any charge you do declare is not forced (by definition, although the definition is implicit).

Is it intended that UGs that would have a forced charge can always declare a free charge? If so, it would help a lot if it was explicit in 5.C.4. 

[lionheartrjc]

Forced charges are not free charges.  They can still be declared in SP2.2 and do not cost any cards. 

If you do not declare a forced charge and have not stopped it, it is marked in SP2.3 (and you can choose the direction), but it hasn't been declared.

You Shoot & Charge when you declare a charge.  Therefore if you do not declare the charge in SP2.2 you cannot shoot & charge.
Shoot & charge troops can shoot when standing to receive a charge as normal in the charge phase.  Charge-only troops can only shoot with the files that are actually charged.  This is clarified in the revisions to the PDF edition.

Richard

[LawrenceG]

Forced charges are not free charges.  They can still be declared in SP2.2 and do not cost any cards. 

Richard

Is that bit also clarified in the revisions to the pdf?

[tarnowski1]

'Charge-only troops can only shoot with the files that are actually charged.  This is clarified in the revisions to the PDF edition.'

in path of charge but might not necessary contacted?

Regards
Matt

Forced charges are not free charges.  They can still be declared in SP2.2 and do not cost any cards. 

If you do not declare a forced charge and have not stopped it, it is marked in SP2.3 (and you can choose the direction), but it hasn't been declared.

You Shoot & Charge when you declare a charge.  Therefore if you do not declare the charge in SP2.2 you cannot shoot & charge.
Shoot & charge troops can shoot when standing to receive a charge as normal in the charge phase.  Charge-only troops can only shoot with the files that are actually charged.  This is clarified in the revisions to the PDF edition.

Richard

[lionheartrjc]

Forced charges are not free charges.  They can still be declared in SP2.2 and do not cost any cards. 

Richard

Is that bit also clarified in the revisions to the pdf?

It has always been in the rules.  Page 83 of the Compendium edition "Forced charges can be declared for free". 

[nikgaukroger]

Forced charges are not free charges.  They can still be declared in SP2.2 and do not cost any cards. 

Richard

Is that bit also clarified in the revisions to the pdf?

It has always been in the rules.  Page 83 of the Compendium edition "Forced charges can be declared for free".

And on page 24 of the PDF, 3rd bullet of SP2.2 - "Forced charges can be declared for free but require cards to hold them."

[LawrenceG]

And on page 24 of the PDF, 3rd bullet of SP2.2 - "Forced charges can be declared for free but require cards to hold them."

Found it in the  bullet list that appears to be part of 1.C2.2 "Shoot with any troops using shoot & charge immediately when you declare the charge."

I think there is scope for significantly improving the mental ergonomics here. I'll PM a suggestion to RJC.

Thanks.

I was looking in 5.C "Forced, Free and prompted Charges". Probably still worth mentioning it and putting a cross reference here.

[nikgaukroger]

I'm sure a running note of useful additional hyperlinks would help the next time there is a big revision of the PDF. However, I think that will be some time away as the current revision is now finalised I understand.