Ming Mixed Units?

[martymagnificent]

While I'm no great expert on the Ming military, it seems odd that they don't use any mixed units in MeG.

My limited reading suggests they were complex mixed formation enthusiasts and every other set of rules/lists I'm aware of allows (or requires) some mixed units. In the ReG lists (which overlap a little with the MeG ones) mixed units are compulsory.

Does the MeG list team have some secret knowledge on this others are not privy to?

Martin

[nikgaukroger]

A long time since I looked at Ming stuff but I seem to recall that I came to the conclusion that mixed units were in army lists not through any real evidence but from a belief that Chinese always had them and tended to ignore the significant break in continuity caused by the Mongol conquest of China and that the Southern Song possibly/probably didn't use mixed units. This is then coupled with a bit of a fixation on the "Mandarin Duck" formation developed in the C16th in specific circumstances and only used for a limited time and we end up with Ming always having mixed units.

That said, it is a while ago now, and I didn't have that much time to dig deep (and to be honest limited stuff in English) and if you have the evidence for mixed units in the MeG period post it up.

[nikgaukroger]

There is this website which could be useful - https://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/ - however, the last time I had reason to look at it the contents were all about post-MeG period stuff and it wasn't clear if any would apply backwards in time.

[martymagnificent]

Yeah I've read a fair bit on that website and it is largely later period. I'll have a bit of a dig around. Does seem odd that the 16th century Ming would employ multiple different mixed formations in different settings (as that site suggests) if they had no history of it.

Of course could be argued it's only an issue because neither missile foot (sans anything special) or polearm are particularly useful in unmixed units.

Martin

[nikgaukroger]

Of course could be argued it's only an issue because neither missile foot (sans anything special) or polearm are particularly useful in unmixed units.

I don't think that assertion is sustainable.

[nikgaukroger]

I'd also mention that even over the earlier periods of Chinese history the mixed units come and go - presumably depending on the needs of the times.

[martymagnificent]

Of course could be argued it's only an issue because neither missile foot (sans anything special) or polearm are particularly useful in unmixed units.

I don't think that assertion is sustainable.

I suppose it could just be a coincidence that the Chinese armies with mixed units seem to be the ones that turn up in comps.

Martin

[nikgaukroger]

Of course could be argued it's only an issue because neither missile foot (sans anything special) or polearm are particularly useful in unmixed units.

I don't think that assertion is sustainable.

I suppose it could just be a coincidence that the Chinese armies with mixed units seem to be the ones that turn up in comps.

Martin

They may well be the most common, but I suspect it is more than just the mixed units that influence the choices. But regardless of that, and people choose armies for fairly varied reasons (at least in the UK), I'd say the statement isn't really correct anyway.

[martymagnificent]

I contacted the author of 'The Great Ming Military' site and asked what he knew about mixed Ming formations in the 14th and 15th centuries. He replied...

I seldom write about early Ming period because significantly fewer records survived from that time. May be if I dig into old books I might find some precise formation, but currently nothing comes to mind.

That being said, Chinese armies had been using mixed melee/ranged formation since Song period, so it's safe to assume that early Ming armies also used them.

A evidence (that I was able to recall immediately) comes from one battle during Jingnan Campaign (so it was Ming vs Ming). Long story short, the rebel faction army (Ming troops loyal to Zhu Di/future Yongle Emperor) sent out a small contingent of cavalry personally led by Zhu Di to provoke the army of loyalist faction (Ming troops loyal to Jianwen Emperor) led by commander Sheng Yong. Sheng Yong sent out a thousand cavalry to chase after Zhu Di, but he suspect that this might be a trap, so he later sent out another contingent of infantry as backup. However Zhu Di ordered his cavalry to draw away the loyalist cavalry, and after they became separated from the infantry, the main force of Zhu Di (10,000 cavalry and 5,000 mounted infantry) fall upon the isolated loyalist infantry.

乃以骑兵一万连步卒五千薄贼阵。将交锋，步卒下马，攻其左掖，贼拥盾层叠自蔽，我军攻之不能入。上预作木矛？赞，长六七尺许，横贯铁钉于其端，钉末逆钩，令勇士直前掷之，连贯其盾，亟不得出，动则相牵联，不可以蔽，遂乘其空隙以攻之。贼被箭，遂弃盾走，仓卒发火器，俱不能著人，反烧其阵，贼众乱。骑兵乘之而入，直擣其腹心，贼皆前奔。

Zhu Di's infantry dismounted first then attacked the left flank of the loyalist infantry. However the loyalist infantry formed a layered shield formation and repelled their attack. So Zhu Di's troops threw barbed javelins to disable their shields, then rained arrows into the gaps. The disrupted loyalist infantry dropped their shields and fled, (some?) tried to return fire with guns, but unable to hit anything amid the chaos. Finally Zhu Di's cavalry charged into the disrupted formation and won the day.

Note that the loyalist infantry could form shield formation and repel rebel infantry assault, yet armed with guns with the same formation, which suggest that this was a mixed formation.

Regards,
春秋戰國

Great Ming Military
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com

Seems to be at least one reasonably clear example of a mixed formation

Martin

[nikgaukroger]

It may well be a mixed formation if you assume the troops using shields are not those armed with firearms. Not unusual for Chinese accounts to be vague on stuff like that, and there could be other information elsewhere that would support it. For the reasons mentioned above I am somewhat less inclined just to assume formation continuity that the website's author.

Interesting reference to mounted infantry as well, not to mention the use of javelins 

Useful stuff - thanks 

[martymagnificent]

Apparently cavalry dismounting/mounted infantry was a reasonably common thing in some theaters. He discusses it elsewhere in the blog.

So rare for sources to be explicit about the things wargamers are interested in!

Martin

[nikgaukroger]

Especially Chinese ones 

Or at least Chinese ones where we have English translations