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Author Topic: Who can Evade?  (Read 275 times)

stuuk

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Who can Evade?
« on: March 10, 2019, 05:19:53 PM »
With the 2019 change to Armoured Horse, the book's evasion section likely needs a re-write.
Currently it says "TUGs containing any .... fully armoured... cannot run away or skirmish"

The armoured horse 2019 clarification does not mention evasion.

So for purposes of evasion, is it the fully armoured horse, or the fully armoured man that prevents evasion, and is that still the case?

nikgaukroger

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2019, 07:11:06 PM »
Tis a good question.

The mounted Fully Armoured of yesteryear would be those who are now ArmHrs/FArm in the 2019 lists.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

badhabum

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2019, 07:27:20 PM »
I wonder, could a unit with armoured horses evade ? at least they move at a slower rate but is it possible ?

nikgaukroger

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2019, 08:02:14 PM »
Quite probably.

Horse armour does not tend to be that heavy. For example the horse armour from the famous A21 at the Wallace Collection (https://www.wallacecollection.org/collection/equestrian-armour/) is a shade over 30Kg and Henry VII's Burgundian bard (https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-2626.html) is about 32.5Kg. I don't think that equivalent eastern types would be much different in weight although of different construction.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

craig.w

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2019, 01:27:24 AM »
I wonder, could a unit with armoured horses evade ? at least they move at a slower rate but is it possible ?

If they can't, then a lot of the Mongols and their successor states will have some pretty immobile Khan's guards.  ;D Personally, I'm not sure from where this idea came that all 'Khan's guards' (Mongol Conquest after 1218, Golden Horde, Chagatai, Ilkhanate etc) had armoured horses. Maybe some, but all of them, in every army?

nikgaukroger

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2019, 07:12:46 AM »
Well, they were all large, powerful and organised states so continuity is not, IMO, unreasonable. Later Nomadic Mongol, as less so doesn't get the ArmHrs, likewise Jalairids.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

lionheartrjc

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2019, 07:28:07 AM »
With the 2019 change to Armoured Horse, the book's evasion section likely needs a re-write.
Currently it says "TUGs containing any .... fully armoured... cannot run away or skirmish"

The armoured horse 2019 clarification does not mention evasion.

So for purposes of evasion, is it the fully armoured horse, or the fully armoured man that prevents evasion, and is that still the case?


ArmHrs is not "Fully Armoured" so does not prevent evades.  Note that the shooting QRS specifically refers to Cv/Cm with ArmHrs or F Arm Foot.  This seems very clear to me.

Richard

stuuk

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2019, 09:24:39 AM »
The designation 'Fully Armoured' no longer applies to cavalry.
As per clarification 2019, the choices are:

"The Army List and Army Builder allow combinations of ArmHrs-‐Prot, -‐/FArm, ArmHrs-‐FArm"

Which one (or more) prevents evasion?

lionheartrjc

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2019, 01:03:32 PM »
TuGs containing fully armoured cannot evade.

So ArmHrs/Fully Armoured, -/Fully Armoured cannot evade.
ArmHrs/Protected, -/Protected may be able to evade (depending upon their weapon type and characteristics).

Fully Armoured only applies to infantry and elephants who cannot evade.

Richard

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2019, 08:50:19 AM »
As RJC has explained and quite deliberate.

Si
Rolling Skulls in the land or Purple

stuuk

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2019, 08:01:11 PM »
ArmHrs/Fully Armoured, -/Fully Armoured cannot evade.

Thanks, fair enough.

craig.w

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2019, 03:26:35 AM »
Well, they were all large, powerful and organised states so continuity is not, IMO, unreasonable. Later Nomadic Mongol, as less so doesn't get the ArmHrs, likewise Jalairids.

I was slammed on the other forum for making suppositions (in my case it was that Hephthalite nobles would likely have armour considering they defeated and ruled Sassanids for a considerable time and that other steppe nomads from the same area had it) so I'll ask the same question that was asked of me - where are the primary sources for units of fully armoured horses in the Golden Horde, for example. It isn't an option, it's compulsory, so I'd assume there is evidence for it. As an aside, Golden Horde is also the only one of the main successor states without exceptional guards, seems poor Batu didn't have the best troops ;).

Cheers,

Craig

nikgaukroger

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2019, 08:04:48 AM »
Some suppositions are more acceptable than others :o ;D

I'll leave the horse armour evidnce question to those with more knowledge of Mongols than I, but I would say that Batu does seem to get a raw deal on a couple of things.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

lionheartrjc

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Re: Who can Evade?
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2019, 08:12:33 AM »
One for consideration when the armies are next reviewed.