Evading through supporting troops

[nikgaukroger]

We're not looking for new mechanisms - whilst intellectually interesting to ponder, the question we are looking at is that stated by Richard and we're sticking to that 

The point "It does feel perhaps wrong that you should have to face two lots of shooting on the way in...was it historical for shooters to have skirmishers operating in front of them in this fashion? I'm not sure it was." is a pertinent one.

[badhabum]

The middle file of the archers can shoot as it is within 1 BW of the path of charge - it is the path of charge that you shoot at.

I would aks you you you are sure of that as per 9.4, K.2 it seems that the middle one could not shoot .

Which might also be a problem for the 2 other bases as they do not have a complete line of sight at the beginning of the charge . I suppose that is the discussion you have . IMO none of the bowmen in your exemple should shoot as per the above mentionned paragraph ( pg 130 )

Actually, according to page 130 they do shoot.  The discussion is whether 9.6 D.2 (page 156) applies in the charge phase and whether it refers to the target base before it has been moved.

Richard

So in the case of the above picture, even if the bases do not conform to the fact that both corners should see the target in order to shoot ( one concept ) , they may shoot, because at the beginning of the charge they see even only partially , the charger.

Now what about the center base ?

And what would change if the SK bases did touch the bowmen because I do not see a difference if they did . They still would be in the front of the UG but Nik seems to say it would be different or did I misunderstand ?

Now IMO, none of the bowmen could shoot because at the beginning of the charge, none of them had the opportunity to have a correct LOS and the SK did pass trough them but I can understand the other logic .

And frankly I see no difference between the SK being a few millimeters away from the bow or in contact with them.

If the bowmen are allowed to shoot in this case this will be the source of new tactics, outting some SK to the front of the bowmen of other shooters who will shoot once again ..interesting new concept . What did the spartans say at Thermopylae ?

[nikgaukroger]

I can assure you that per the picture all the archers can shoot by the rules and this is what is intended (as Si has confirmed in the discussions between RJC, myself and him on this to date).

However, because of potentially undesirable effects the question we are looking at is, as Richard mentioned earlier, whether 9.6 D.2 (page 156) should apply - which would bring it to what you thought the rules were anyway 

[Wizard of Oz]

For what it is worth, my premise for my initial question was that the charging unit, after the SuG had evaded out of the way, would be at some stage within one base width and directly ahead of the unit being charged. At some point the charging unit is directly ahead, within one base width and the shooting file can ''draw an uninterrupted line to some part of the target base without passing through friends". (page 156)
On page 130, K1. and K2. are what raised questions.
K1. ''Files can shoot at chargers if the path of charge passes within 1BW and ahead of them,''.
K2. ''i.e. if you put foot skirmishers in front of a TuG of bowmen and they are charged, then the skirmishers will shoot. but the TuG behind will not.''
To be fair, the extract from K2 is pretty clear cut, but so is K1 and the bit from page 156. Also, what about mounted skirmishers in front of bow armed cavalry etc?
Also, for what it is worth, I think that skirmishers are skirmishers whose job it was to skirmish in front of the main battle line, not just in front of those armed in a particular way, I think they used their weapons differently.
This may, however, not work at a game level, and these are such good rules it would be a shame to upset that balance in some way that was unnecessary.
Regards,

[badhabum]

I can assure you that per the picture all the archers can shoot by the rules and this is what is intended (as Si has confirmed in the discussions between RJC, myself and him on this to date).

However, because of potentially undesirable effects the question we are looking at is, as Richard mentioned earlier, whether 9.6 D.2 (page 156) should apply - which would bring it to what you thought the rules were anyway 

But why can they shoot ?

If I read pg 130 : if you put foot skirmishers to the front of a TUG of bowmen and they are charged, then the skirmishers will shoot, but the TUG behind will not.

So you keep telling us that the bowmen may shoot but the written rule says no !

So the basic question is WHY ?

[nikgaukroger]

Because the actual rule is that you can shoot if the path of charge comes within 1 BW.

You are mistaking the "fluff" explanation with the actual rule - it is an example and a generalisation, and what actually happens in a game will depend on the specific circumstances of where the units actually are and where the path of charge goes.

[rayfredjohn]

Because the actual rule is that you can shoot if the path of charge comes within 1 BW.

You are mistaking the "fluff" explanation with the actual rule - it is an example and a generalisation, and what actually happens in a game will depend on the specific circumstances of where the units actually are and where the path of charge goes.

So if you charge bow infantry skirmishers who are in front of a bow armed infantry TuG you will be shot twice if you come within 1BW?

[Glactophagos]

If I read this discussion correctly, it seems to be about whether to apply page 130 k2 or page 156 d2, correct?
I would say this is decided on page 155 b2: 156 d2 applies...

[nikgaukroger]

Because the actual rule is that you can shoot if the path of charge comes within 1 BW.

You are mistaking the "fluff" explanation with the actual rule - it is an example and a generalisation, and what actually happens in a game will depend on the specific circumstances of where the units actually are and where the path of charge goes.

So if you charge bow infantry skirmishers who are in front of a bow armed infantry TuG you will be shot twice if you come within 1BW?

If the path of charge goes within 1 BW.

Its all about the path of charge.

[nikgaukroger]

If I read this discussion correctly, it seems to be about whether to apply page 130 k2 or page 156 d2, correct?
I would say this is decided on page 155 b2: 156 d2 applies...

Good grief, how on earth have we missed that - hiding in plain sight 

Many thanks for pointing it out, and that we need to get better glasses 

I think it would then follow that measuring lines to the target base would be done at 1 BW which is where all shooting at chargers is taken to happen - and you would measure to the path of charge.

In which case, in the picture I posted the archers may not be able to shoot if the skirmishers are blocking the lines drawn; the middle one would definitely not be able to the other.

[Ambiorix]

In which case, in the picture I posted the archers may not be able to shoot if the skirmishers are blocking the lines drawn; the middle one would definitely not be able to the other.
[/quote]

So are you implying the 2 outer Archers can still shoot in your example ?   Because thx to Cavillarius input they do not comply within 1BW of the path with D2 of p156.

[nikgaukroger]

No I said they "may not be able to shoot". I could not be arsed to go back and actually measure the picture.

They are obviously within 1 BW of the path of charge (why do you think they are not?) but I doubt the required lines can be drawn from their front corners to the path of charge at the point the path of charge is at 1 BW (i.e. where shooting at chargers is deemed to take place).

[Ambiorix]

but I doubt the required lines can be drawn from their front corners to the path of charge at the point the path of charge is at 1 BW (i.e. where shooting at chargers is deemed to take place).

Exactly, as on the photo they cannot draw these lines, none of the archers can shoot, hence my question to be sure all is clear now .

[Wizard of Oz]

But does 156 D2 not support the idea that the rear TuG of Sparabara will have an uninterrupted view of the path of charge of the charging Hoplites from the initial question when the SuG has evaded or run away through them and the Sparabara will therefore be able to shoot?

[nikgaukroger]

I think you are forgetting the order things are done in the turn sequence.

Shooting at chargers is done before any bases are moved including those of troops running away or skirmishing. This is why the path of charge mechanism is so important.