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Author Topic: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian  (Read 2141 times)

lionheartrjc

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Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« on: December 11, 2021, 12:10:57 PM »
Sassanid infantry were ranked as second in status to the savaran cavalry. Infantry did form a significant proportion of the Sassanid army.
There appear to have been three distinct types of infantry:  paighan; archers and light infantry.
Paighan (essentially foot-soldiers) is not a precise defined term.  It could refer to a peasant pressed into service or a professional infantryman. Paighan are however distinguished from the peasants pressed into service to handle baggage, in sieges etc.

Secondary sources describe paighan as equipped with spear and shield, although it is often unclear on what primary source or archaeology they have used to make this conclusion.  Other weapons mentioned by secondary sources include swords, daggers and maces.

The remains of a Sassanid soldier excavated at Dura-Europos wore a short-sleeved mail garment, carried a rectangular shield and wore a two-piece riveted ridge helmet.

Kaveh Farrokh in his book "Armies of Ancient Persia - The Sassanians" claims Ammianus Marcellinus describes Sassanid infantry at the time of Julian's invasion in 363 CE. "Their infantry are armed like Murmillos and are as obedient as grooms." - (Unfortunately I cannot find this quote Farrokh cites Wieskopf J 1990 - a German book translated into English.  Elsewhere Ammianus describes Romans as "defending themselves like Murmillos).  Assuming the quote is accurate, Ammianus wrote this about 20 years after the events, so can be given credence.

The obedient as grooms suggest they were well disciplined but possibly lacking initiative. The Murmillo was a gladiator equipped with a gladius, a rectangular shield, a large leather belt, segmented or scale armour, a large helmet and shin guards.  This implies a fairly heavily armoured infantryman.  A sword, helmet and rectangular shield would seem to be the minimum to fit the description.

At the Battle of Ctesiphon 363 CE, Ammianus describes the Sassanid infantry drawn up behind the cavalry as "companies of infantry, protected by oblong, curved shields covered with wickerwork and raw hides,... in very close order" (24.6.8).  After a days fighting, the Sassanid first line was beaten and the army, with the infantry, fled. I think this tells us little about the fighting ability of the Sassanid infantry.

As well as the term "Paighan", another term "neyze-daran" is used to describe Sassanid infantry.  This apparently translates as "foot spearmen".  There is no indication whether the foot threw their spears or fought with them in close combat. 

The Sassanids made extensive use of walls and fortifications to defend their frontiers.  These defences would have needed substantial forces.  The Sassanid army was also very adept at siege warfare.  Both are reasons for maintaining effective infantry forces.

In wargaming terms, Sassanid infantry has generally been classified as just levies. This dates back to early WRG army lists (remember Irregular D?) and doesn't really seem to have been challenged much.

From an army list perspective it then comes down to how the Sassanid infantry should be classified.  They clearly are competent infantry but were beaten by the Romans (but who wasn't!).  A Sassanid Persian army should still be primarily a cavalry army, but it could mobilise infantry as well.

I'll do a separate post on the Daylamite infantry, used from at least the time of Khosrow I (530 CE onwards).

Richard

nikgaukroger

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2021, 12:48:19 PM »
Kaveh Farrokh in his book "Armies of Ancient Persia - The Sassanians" claims Ammianus Marcellinus describes Sassanid infantry at the time of Julian's invasion in 363 CE. "Their infantry are armed like Murmillos and are as obedient as grooms." - (Unfortunately I cannot find this quote Farrokh cites Wieskopf J 1990 - a German book translated into English.  Elsewhere Ammianus describes Romans as "defending themselves like Murmillos).  Assuming the quote is accurate, Ammianus wrote this about 20 years after the events, so can be given credence.

The obedient as grooms suggest they were well disciplined but possibly lacking initiative. The Murmillo was a gladiator equipped with a gladius, a rectangular shield, a large leather belt, segmented or scale armour, a large helmet and shin guards.  This implies a fairly heavily armoured infantryman.  A sword, helmet and rectangular shield would seem to be the minimum to fit the description.

Ammianus' description of the Persian infantry as armed like murmillones is Book XXIII, 83

"Through military training and discipline, through constant exercise in warfare and military manoeuvres, which we have often described, they cause dread even to great armies; they rely especially on the valour of their cavalry, in which all the nobles and men of rank undergo hard service; for the infantry are armed like the murmillones,​ and they obey orders like so many horse-boys. The whole throng of them always follows in the rear, as if doomed to perpetual slavery, without ever being supported by pay or gifts. And this nation, so bold and so well trained for the dust of Mars, would have brought many other peoples under the yoke in addition to those whom they fully subdued, were they not constantly plagued by domestic and foreign wars."

And to elaborate on the Roman defending themselves like mumillos, it is from the description of the Battle of Argentoratum when the Primani are attacked - it goes on to say they (the Primani) use swords to stab the Alamanni so reinforcing the sword & shield implication of using "murmillo".
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

badhabum

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2021, 10:51:20 AM »

badhabum

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2021, 11:18:24 AM »
Quote
And to elaborate on the Roman defending themselves like mumillos, it is from the description of the Battle of Argentoratum when the Primani are attacked - it goes on to say they (the Primani) use swords to stab the Alamanni so reinforcing the sword & shield implication of using "murmillo".

I am sorry but what is the link between sassanid shield and sword infantry and a Battle near Strasbourg, France .

badhabum

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2021, 08:32:06 PM »
I must frankly admitt I fail to see what brings you to the conclusion that those sassanid guys are "melee expert" . I use a sassanid army and might be pleased by the fact that there is some good infantry in it but why are the sassanian "melee expert" and not the romans, what makes the difference ? I just would like to understand !

nikgaukroger

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2021, 09:52:58 AM »
Quote
And to elaborate on the Roman defending themselves like mumillos, it is from the description of the Battle of Argentoratum when the Primani are attacked - it goes on to say they (the Primani) use swords to stab the Alamanni so reinforcing the sword & shield implication of using "murmillo".

I am sorry but what is the link between sassanid shield and sword infantry and a Battle near Strasbourg, France .

It is about understanding the source(s) in a deeper nuanced way involving looking at the language they use and the (probable) reasons that they do - this takes into account the audience they are writing for as well. Really helps with understanding and interpretation and, thus, on thinking when drawing up army lists  :)
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

nikgaukroger

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2021, 09:58:32 AM »
I use a sassanid army and might be pleased by the fact that there is some good infantry in it but why are the sassanian "melee expert" and not the romans,

This statement is patently erroneous.

The Sasanid lists that can have the Swordsmen run from 224CE to 488CE. Within that period to 397CE the Romans can have Melee Expert (not to mention numerous above Average infantry). Now that does leave the C5th (isn't this always the case) but as the Romans and Sasanids only fought 2 very short wars then to little effect (and negligible evidence) I'm comfortable with what we have. Post 488CE there are no Sasanid Swordsmen so for the frequent C6th wars and the final Roman-Sasanid war it is not a thing.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

badhabum

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2021, 10:14:41 AM »
I was looking at the later lists  8) hence my mistake

nikgaukroger

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2021, 10:25:00 AM »
Easily done  ;D
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

Ambiorix

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2021, 06:18:45 PM »
Quote

 Within that period to 397CE the Romans can have Melee Expert

Hi Nik, as you know in 363CE the Romans used darts against the Sassanids, but in the current list those Romans can NOT have Melee Expert.
So does this mean they will get it now too in order not to be disadvantaged against Sassanid swordsmen ??
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 06:46:33 PM by nikgaukroger »

lionheartrjc

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2021, 06:28:31 PM »

Quote

 Within that period to 397CE the Romans can have Melee Expert

Hi Nik, as you know in 363CE the Romans used darts against the Sassanids, but in the current list those Romans can NOT have Melee Expert.
So does this mean they will get it now too in order not to be disadvantaged against Sassanid swordsmen ??

Incorrect.  The regrading to regrading to 397CE is always optional (not all Romans were re-equipped.    Anyway, with Darts and Short Spear, the Romans are still capable against the Sassanid infantry, and some can be upgraded to Superior, which the Sassanid infantry cannot be. 

Richard
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 06:46:52 PM by nikgaukroger »

badhabum

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2021, 07:38:46 PM »
I can see that but you have missed the basic question : what makes them "melee expert". For the romans it is easely explained by "tradition" since the republic but the sassanid ? from short spear to melee expert ..what is the source ? ( after all they were beaten by the romans )

nikgaukroger

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2021, 08:16:32 PM »
Richard covered this in his very first post with the reference to the Battle of Ctesiphon.

There we have a hard fought battle against a Sasanid army of cavalry and infantry, the latter consistent with the description of the sword & shield infantry mentioned elsewhere by Ammianus. The Romans win but it is a tough battle which indicates that the Sasanid army was effective; it is not unreasonable that this includes the infantry which therefore raises them above troops with no claims at all and given the information we have on them Melee Expert seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I must say I am at a bit of a loss as to why you think troops who will be at least 2 claims down in the charge phase and at best even in the following combat phases are so dangerous to Roman infantry (I am taking the liberty of assuming Impact Weapon/ME for the Romans as IMO that is the most appropriate classification).
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

AntiokosIII

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2021, 11:56:46 PM »
<tongue placed in cheek> I have lost far too many fights where I wa rolling yellow dice against an opponent rolling whites to find this kind of matchup anything but fraught with danger for the ‘better’ troops. Two weeks ago I played a game where I got 3 units of superior Roman legionaries into melee with protected archers. My yellow dice lost to his white dice on all three. Yellow dice hate me. <normal communication resumed>
Miniature Wargaming is the only completely honorable form of warfare ever invented by man.

badhabum

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Re: Sassanid Infantry- Middle Sassanid Persian
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2021, 05:13:50 PM »
Richard covered this in his very first post with the reference to the Battle of Ctesiphon.

There we have a hard fought battle against a Sasanid army of cavalry and infantry, the latter consistent with the description of the sword & shield infantry mentioned elsewhere by Ammianus. The Romans win but it is a tough battle which indicates that the Sasanid army was effective; it is not unreasonable that this includes the infantry which therefore raises them above troops with no claims at all and given the information we have on them Melee Expert seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I must say I am at a bit of a loss as to why you think troops who will be at least 2 claims down in the charge phase and at best even in the following combat phases are so dangerous to Roman infantry (I am taking the liberty of assuming Impact Weapon/ME for the Romans as IMO that is the most appropriate classification).

Well we still do not know why those guys are melee expert  ;D I did not really expect an answer as nothing points to such a thing. To me by an act of god they become melee expert and others never will be that's it . I disagree with that change, asked for sources and got none . Now why would they be so dangerous : they face mostly short spear infantry ( so one down not 2 ). Every players knows he can soften the impact by deploying on a small frontage so impact will rarely be decisive ( it can but how often does someone break at impact ? ) . Now the long term melee is the winner and by having the persian melee expert they have better chances on the long run . They may fail ..it may happoen that the dreaded white dice prevails ..but not so often . Now would I agree to have some persian infantry melee expert ! yes why not with sources and with part of the infantry not all the infantry as I think we will now rerely see some spear sassanid infantry , much more melee expert ones .

That's my opinion so yes, another change based , IMO, on no reliable source ( see from a detective point of view ) . So it is said, I do no rule the changes I just express my complete loss at some changes .