James IV Scots

[accard]

After the glorious victory by the Scots in the recent world championship I had a look at the list.

I was wondering why the front rank nobles, whom the list notes states carried pavises, are given shield cover(frontal only) instead of the pavis characteristic.

Is that to deny them the combat bonus in the charge phase vs foot?

[nikgaukroger]

Because at Flodden (which is the source for this) the effect appears to have been wholly to be protection against missiles - they were carried as large shields rather than set up as a barrier to defend.

[accard]

Cheers

[marshalney2000]

They are described as discarding them prior to impact. To be honest the combo of heavy armour and wooden pavise was a belt and braces protection against longbow.

[lionheartrjc]

Probably ought to adjust the special rule so that they lose shield cover once they have fought a combat...

I have wondered about slowing their maximum movement distance to 2BW if they choose to retain shield cover (slowing effect of shield cover would still apply - so 1BW unless they prompt through fire), but allowing them to discard shield cover and then they revert to 3BW movement.

If you want to represent Flodden, then the opponent should have the opportunity to place a marsh (swamp?) after the Scots have deployed.  I think this is the only way you could get a historical result.  James IV was quite scientific about his approach to warfare - it is a pity he didn't understand that any plan falls apart upon contact with the enemy.

Richard

[rayfredjohn]

James IV was quite scientific about his approach to warfare - it is a pity he didn't understand that any plan falls apart upon contact with the enemy.

Richard

and from a family with a nasty habit of dying in battle

[marshalney2000]

Not that many died in bed.
As I recall:
James 1st Murdered in Perth
James 2nd Blown up during an artillery demonstration
James 3rd Murdered after the battle had finished.
James 4th Definitely killed in a battle
James 5th Died in his bed
James 6th and 1st. Died in his bed.

[marshalney2000]

Richard some merit in removing it after first combat but should this also not apply to archers with stakes. At the moment, they get of easy carrying loads of stakes around and then discarding them as they go but miraculously find another set in the middle of the battlefield just at the moment they need them.
As for James  the fourth armies having a detrimental piece of terrain placed against them, then presumably Scots Bannockburn armies should be allowed to place a deep non crossable burn behind their opponents as well as areas of boggy ground on the flanks. Oh and let us not forget covering their front with pots.
By the way there is a wonderful Bannockburn song set to the tune of the Battle of New Orleans.

[marshalney2000]

To be completely accurate Flodden was not a swamp but a very sodden steep hillside with a hidden ditch at the bottom. On the one area of the battlefield where the ditch was not present the opposing English flank was swept away in rout. The bordered on both sides then allegedly decided to declare an unofficial truce.

[rayfredjohn]

Not that many died in bed.
As I recall:
James 1st Murdered in Perth
James 2nd Blown up during an artillery demonstration
James 3rd Murdered after the battle had finished.
James 4th Definitely killed in a battle
James 5th Died in his bed
James 6th and 1st. Died in his bed.

Things got safer after his death

[lionheartrjc]

Richard some merit in removing it after first combat but should this also not apply to archers with stakes. At the moment, they get of easy carrying loads of stakes around and then discarding them as they go but miraculously find another set in the middle of the battlefield just at the moment they need them.
As for James  the fourth armies having a detrimental piece of terrain placed against them, then presumably Scots Bannockburn armies should be allowed to place a deep non crossable burn behind their opponents as well as areas of boggy ground on the flanks. Oh and let us not forget covering their front with pots.
By the way there is a wonderful Bannockburn song set to the tune of the Battle of New Orleans.

Don't disagree with you about Stakes - but that is a rule change so up to Simon....
To be clear, the terrain piece idea is not a general rule - but for recreating Flodden.  Interesting idea - allowing a marshy steep hill.
Indeed for Bannockburn - the Scots certainly can get their own back in terms of terrain. 

Richard

[grahambriggs]

Why do these Scots get full armour front ranks while C15th pikes don't get that option? I'm no expert but Heath in his Armies of the Middle ages gives Schilling's Berne Chronicles as a source for fully armoured pikemen in Swiss and Burgundian armies.

[nikgaukroger]

Probably because the illustrations in Schilling don't IIRC actually show very many fully armoured men (the old books showing the unusual because they are interesting but inadvertently giving the impression the are common thing), whilst the Scots are described as the front rank (s?) being so armoured and also notes the effect this had which, again, I don't think is mentioned in relation to the Swiss.

[badhabum]

I just wonder how many James IV armies we will see on the field in 2022

[marshalney2000]

It does have a lot of flaws as well as some strengths. Not an Uber Army by any means.