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Author Topic: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks  (Read 262 times)

Francis Small

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Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« on: June 07, 2021, 09:46:19 PM »
In a recent game a unit of skirmishers were shot at, resulting in a slowing marker, and subsequently pushed back that same turn. My contention - not universally accepted - was that the slowing marker comes off the skirmishers when they are pushed back. (The slowing marker reduces how far they can be pushed back without a KaB test - but this was immaterial at the time.) I thought I was correct, but the opposing player is such an authority that I am now filled with self-doubt. I couldn't cite chapter and verse for why I thought this at the time, but have since found the rules: p. 161, H6 (briefly: deduct distance from next move of any kind, including outcome moves, then remove the marker). The glossary lacks a definition for outcome moves. The rules refer to them in a really roundabout manner on p. 109, H1 (briefly: not a prompted move under your own action). The question of what an outcome move was raised and "answered" in another thread by Nik, but his answer implied that outcome moves must involved passing through friends. So now I'm lead to believe that:

  • Since the skirmishers weren't pushed back through friends, it's not an outcome move, and we played it correctly, but
  • If the skirmishers had been pushed through friends, it would have been an outcome move, and the slowing marker would have been removed.

I'm left with the though that qualifying as an outcome move being contingent on if you pass through friends or not and the subsequent implication for removing slowing markers or not is really, um, counterintuitive? Or maybe I've just mucked up the interpretation again.

Jilu

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2021, 04:33:36 AM »
an outcomemove does not have to be passing through friends.
fleeing/skirmishing are outcome moves, passing through friends or not.
Liberate me ex infernis

Francis Small

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2021, 05:09:20 AM »
And getting pushed back... is an outcome move, regardless of being pushed through friends or not?

lionheartrjc

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2021, 07:46:03 AM »
I am really confused by what it is you are asking!

Being pushed back does NOT remove the slowing effects of fire.  The slowing effect of fire is removed at turn sequence SP 6.1 (page 161).

SuGs are pushed back by enemy, not friends. 
SuGs may be displaced by friends, but that is something entirely different.
Passing through friends is again, something different.

A definition of outcome move for passing through friends (page 109) is essentially any move not undertaken as a prompted action.  This could include being pushed back by enemy TuGs.  Note this is purely for the purposes of passing through friends.

Richard

« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 10:58:45 AM by lionheartrjc »

badhabum

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2021, 10:39:01 AM »
Slow down affects the distance you move when

- Skirmishing
- Fleeing
- Prompted move

Another question :
Quote
This could include being pushed back by enemy SuGs
Can SUGs push back enemy SUGs ?

lionheartrjc

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2021, 10:58:32 AM »
My error - I meant enemy TuGs - corrected original text.

LawrenceG

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2021, 11:43:22 AM »
Slow down affects the distance you move when

- Skirmishing
- Fleeing
- Prompted move


Presumably also charges (whether prompted or forced)?

nikgaukroger

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2021, 12:00:29 PM »
Indeed.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

badhabum

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2021, 02:36:12 PM »
Slow down affects the distance you move when

- Skirmishing
- Fleeing
- Prompted move


Presumably also charges (whether prompted or forced)?

YES OF COURSE

Francis Small

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2021, 04:29:07 PM »
I am really confused by what it is you are asking!

Being pushed back does NOT remove the slowing effects of fire.  The slowing effect of fire is removed at turn sequence SP 6.1 (page 161).

SuGs are pushed back by enemy, not friends. 
SuGs may be displaced by friends, but that is something entirely different.
Passing through friends is again, something different.

A definition of outcome move for passing through friends (page 109) is essentially any move not undertaken as a prompted action.  This could include being pushed back by enemy TuGs.  Note this is purely for the purposes of passing through friends.

Richard

Well, yes I can see your confusion, as I'm pretty confused by the whole thing - especially Nik's original response about what constitutes an outcome move which implied to me that it was dependent on being pushed back through friends. I'm still confused why being pushed pack (by enemies and regardless of if that pushes you into friends or not) doesn't remove the slowing marker - assuming being pushed back by enemies is an outcome move - when p. 161 #6 states:

Quote
Whenever you get a slowing result, place a marker with your UG to record this until they move. This number of BW is then deducted from the movement distance of their next move of any type (including outcome moves), and the marker is removed once the slowing effect has been applied.

I mean, it seems pretty clear to me that it does.

Francis Small

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2021, 04:37:09 PM »
Slow down affects the distance you move when

- Skirmishing
- Fleeing
- Prompted move

Presumably also charges (whether prompted or forced)?

YES OF COURSE

And pursuits as well?

badhabum

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2021, 03:06:20 PM »
Slow down affects the distance you move when

- Skirmishing
- Fleeing
- Prompted move


Presumably also charges (whether prompted or forced)?

YES OF COURSE

And pursuits as well?

Pursuit is always your max speed but also depending on the unit being pursued ( who broke ) who rolls the dice for variable MU  I see no way of slowing down the pursuers any other way

Francis Small

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2021, 08:07:41 PM »
I would have thought that pursuits were outcome moves (and thus subject to the effects of slowing markers) given that a) they are not prompted moves, and b) occur in the Outcomes sub-phase.

lionheartrjc

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2021, 06:48:38 AM »
I would have thought that pursuits were outcome moves (and thus subject to the effects of slowing markers) given that a) they are not prompted moves, and b) occur in the Outcomes sub-phase.

I agree.  Note that an S from a KaB test can introduce a slowing effect (page 171).

nikgaukroger

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Re: Slowing Markers and Pushbacks
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2021, 06:58:17 AM »
Also agreed. I think we often tend to ignore the S on KaBs so probably have not applied it to pursuits much - something to get right in future and get into the habit of marking them consistently  ;D
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."