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Author Topic: Contacting new uncovered enemy in charge  (Read 110 times)

Roger

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Contacting new uncovered enemy in charge
« on: May 03, 2021, 02:12:45 PM »
If A Tug destroys a TUG or a SUG in its charge, but the charging TUG's charge distance allows it to contact new enemy does:-
1. The newly exposed enemy Archers get chance to shoot?
2. Does the newly exposed enemy Cavalry get chance to evade?

lionheartrjc

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Re: Contacting new uncovered enemy in charge
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2021, 06:00:53 PM »
1.  Shooting in the charge phase happens before any movement so the archers would have shot before the SuG was caught or destroyed.  (They would shoot if they were within 1BW of the charge path and not blocked by the skirmishers).
2. Interesting question.  My initial reaction was yes they can evade.  Looking at the rulebook and the turn sequence I am not sure they can.  Charge reaction moves are in Sub-Phase 2.5, charge moves in SP 2.6.    That said if the move was a pursuit move, the cavalry would have the opportunity to Run Away or Skirmish.

My "common sense" reaction (page 77) as an Umpire would be to allow them to evade.

Separate point - I presume you meant the UG was destroyed by the charge move, rather than by charge combat.  Only SuGs can be destroyed by the charge move.
If the UG is destroyed by charge combat, then the cavalry would be allowed to Run Away or Skirmish from the pursuit move.

I would welcome Simon's opinion on point 2.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 06:12:32 PM by lionheartrjc »

Francis Small

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Re: Contacting new uncovered enemy in charge
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2021, 06:07:06 PM »
If A Tug destroys a TUG or a SUG in its charge, but the charging TUG's charge distance allows it to contact new enemy does:-
1. The newly exposed enemy Archers get chance to shoot?
2. Does the newly exposed enemy Cavalry get chance to evade?

A TuG can't destroy another TuG during charge movement, but of course it normally destroys a SuG it contacts and keeps moving. The "revealed" unit does not get to shoot (p. 130, K2)

If the SuG would in turn be contacted, I'm pretty sure that it gets to run away/skirmish, does not get to shoot, but also then can't shoot during the shooting phase. I can't cite an exact rule for being able to run away/skirmish - but I do know that this is allowed if contacted during a pursuit and I can only assume that the same is true during charge movement. p. 155 states that you can't shoot if you ran away/skirmished in the charge phase - and it doesn't matter if you actually got to shoot then or not.

nikgaukroger

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Re: Contacting new uncovered enemy in charge
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2021, 07:22:28 PM »
Couple of thoughts to throw into the mix without thinking it through too much.

If a SUG is destroyed by a TUG charge I would assume any possibility of shooting at the chargers would have been covered by the rules on the charge path and shooting at chargers. Any remaining charge move that the chargers move after destroying the SUG is still a charge move and so I think that you could say that logically the new target reacts as if to a charge - plus Richards pursuit analogy - but I don't think is explicitly covered and you could certainly argue that as run away and skirmish moves are explicitly undertaken before charges are moved that the normal responses do not happen.

If it is an UG destroyed by Shoot & Charge shooting the same would apply I guess.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

steads

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Re: Contacting new uncovered enemy in charge
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2021, 10:20:54 AM »
If it is an UG destroyed by Shoot & Charge shooting the same would apply I guess.

Some of this is easy to deal with in the turn sequence but there are 3 sub-cases
a] TUG is merely broken by S&C then has already been explored in a different thread the charge will impact the remaining bases and then pursue (so no shooting from revealed unit and evades possible)
b] SUG is merely broken by S&C then remaining bases would be removed by the contact during the Charge Move sub-phase and the charge would continue to its full distance. I concur that no shooting is possible and agree that an evade should be possible (wait for Si to confirm/deny).
c] TUG or SUG has all bases removed by S&C then there is no obstacle to shooting and evading in the Charge Reaction sub-phase

nikgaukroger

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Re: Contacting new uncovered enemy in charge
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2021, 10:25:53 AM »
c] TUG or SUG has all bases removed by S&C then there is no obstacle to shooting and evading in the Charge Reaction sub-phase

A very good point - S&C is done during the Charge Declaration sub-phase so any charge response would be based on the situation after the S&C has been resolved.
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."

Roger

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Re: Contacting new uncovered enemy in charge
« Reply #6 on: Today at 10:17:33 AM »
Hmm ok so if a bow armed cavalry tug has a bow armed SUG pushed along in front, the sug shoots and skirmishes but doesnt manage to get away and is destroyed exposing the cavalry TUG behind, the Cavalry TUG now also get a chance to shoot and skirmish??

1. ok just reread the thread and read the rules always a usefull fall back :-) so no they cant shoot because they are revealed shooters page 130 K2
2. Tugs that are potentially impacted in pursuit that can Skirmish or Evade, can do so but cannot shoot Page167 C8
« Last Edit: Today at 10:27:14 AM by Roger »