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Author Topic: Charge contacting to the flank edge question  (Read 122 times)

Pawel_Mieczowski

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Charge contacting to the flank edge question
« on: February 02, 2019, 06:19:54 AM »
Hello!

I noticed there is a similar topic but I wanted to use the specific situation to help to address the issue. During one of the games at CanCon the following occurred.

Companions charged exposed edge of the unit already engaged with the Phalagites to the front. However, not all files were directly in the fight. What is more, Companions were not in the flank of the enemy uni (see picture 1).



Companions made contact with one file (picture 2)




and the second file was pushed forward as per the rules on page 78, F.Moving Chargers, p.3 (picture 3).



The exact positioning of all units in area is visible on the photograph attached.



Here are a few questions about this situation:

1. I assumed that 2 files of Companions Cavalry and 2 bases of Foot Warriors would fight in Charge Phase. Is that correct?

2. Since Companions did not start in the flank, no claims for flank/rare charge apply. However, do 2 bases that are in the contact to their flank edge apply their normal claims, even if they are not fighting any files to their front?

3. If a card is played for Companions in the movement phase and they would contact with full front edge to the side edges of Foot Warriors, would they claim the flank attack bonus?

Thank you in advance!

nikgaukroger

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Re: Charge contacting to the flank edge question
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2019, 07:20:35 AM »

Here are a few questions about this situation:

1. I assumed that 2 files of Companions Cavalry and 2 bases of Foot Warriors would fight in Charge Phase. Is that correct?


Yes


Quote
2. Since Companions did not start in the flank, no claims for flank/rare charge apply. However, do 2 bases that are in the contact to their flank edge apply their normal claims, even if they are not fighting any files to their front?


Yes - they fight as if the contact was frontal.


Quote
3. If a card is played for Companions in the movement phase and they would contact with full front edge to the side edges of Foot Warriors, would they claim the flank attack bonus?


They are treated as if they are fighting to the front and so you cannot make a move to flank contact and get the flanking bonus.
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Geoff

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Re: Charge contacting to the flank edge question
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2019, 02:21:28 AM »

They are treated as if they are fighting to the front and so you cannot make a move to flank contact and get the flanking bonus.

This must only apply for the melee round in the same turn as the charge. In the following round you should be able to do a movement so you count as flank for melee.

Dru

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Re: Charge contacting to the flank edge question
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2019, 06:25:25 AM »

They are treated as if they are fighting to the front and so you cannot make a move to flank contact and get the flanking bonus.

This must only apply for the melee round in the same turn as the charge. In the following round you should be able to do a movement so you count as flank for melee.

Contradicts what Si said on FB in reply to Pawel's original post. (I'm glad it's here now, finding FB posts is hard!)
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Dru

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Re: Charge contacting to the flank edge question
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2019, 06:26:57 AM »
Firstly, great diagrams by Pawel.

Secondly, as way of back ground this is what Si said on the FB feed in response to Pawel's post there. (I've kept his typo's....)

Quote
It did but to answer here quickly. 1 yes two files fight two files. 2 no flank bonuses. 3. They fight as if aligned. Their only alignment option is to the front and as a supporting file so they do that. 4 they do not qualify for either of the moves inmovement that can create a side melee. The only two are in the rules.

So in short they Kik. The fight. Get a charge. And stay where they are.

Quote
Or they can align and push back their other troops a little to make room and tidy it. Canít imagine it would last long anyway.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 06:50:02 AM by Dru »
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Dru

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Re: Charge contacting to the flank edge question
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2019, 06:36:18 AM »
This is what Si said on the FB feed. (I've kept his typo's....)

Quote
It did but to answer here quickly. 1 yes two files fight two files. 2 no flank bonuses. 3. They fight as if aligned. Their only alignment option is to the front and as a supporting file so they do that. 4 they do not qualify for either of the moves inmovement that can create a side melee. The only two are in the rules.

So in short they Kik. The fight. Get a charge. And stay where they are.

Quote
Or they can align and push back their other troops a little to make room and tidy it. Canít imagine it would last long anyway.

This of course makes me wonder does this mean that ONE file fights in the charge only (since only space for one in frontal -- Si mentions one would be a supporting file, so seems to contradict himself?).

The SUG could be moved out of the way (as part of the pre-charge phase) but that is probably irrelevant if allowed to contact like this. Seems the cavalry are not FORCED to align and can contact below the flank charge line but count as front contact, despite it all looking weird as and being frontal until the combat ends. Very messy. Especially if these were less lop sided contest and going to go on for a while.

Questions:

1. Si, can you clarify if one or both of the charging files get to fight. You contradicted yourself I think? (There is only space for one to fight if actually considered frontal?)

2. If both can fight, how would this work if the infantry were Pike or LSp?  By making a non-existent extra file fight to the front, it no longer gets bonuses (and may strip the existing file of its bonus)? (e.g. 3 ranks of Pike in the file. Now we have 2 of those ranks within that one file fighting to the front. Do they get the full benefit? Weirdness in any direction this goes, which is why I question having two ranks fighting to the front for a single file).

3. Assuming the cav stay where they are, and the infantry break, which way do the cav pursue, if they decide to? As if they were in front of the infantry? Or as they currently lie - this latter means that another gamey situation where despite being a frontal combat it can now cascade down the infantry flanks into another??

Very messy.

Would much prefer the simple solution that in such situations, the cav are aligned to the front and fight accordingly.

Look forward to Si's replies.

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Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Charge contacting to the flank edge question
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2019, 12:51:31 PM »
Sorry I was locked out of my own forum for a few days ... tech hitch now sorted.

Great diagrams ... which really help me when replying.

a) Both files fight as they have contacted an enemy file.  Think of the front one hitting a file of the front two bases and the rear one a file of the rear base.  Helps.
b) They came from the front and therefore must fight the enemy frontally.  Factors are considered frontal.  In part this is about thinking about the abstraction of bases and moves.  I reality a TuG is exactly that is says - a tactical unit grouping.  So its really several units.  In reality rear and side ones would wheel to cope with an attack from that direction as the cavalary close.  So the flank conditions set the boundary whereupon I consider that to be too difficult to achieve as a natural response. 
c) Bases may only contribute to a fight in a phase once.  So depending what the infantry are it might vary a bit.  Simplest situation is the front Cv fight 2 deep inf and the second 1 deep.  If they were pikes say the infantry commander would have the option to use the 3rd as rear ranks for the front two, but then it can't roll a dice itself to fight the second cavalry.
d) Aligning is always optional - but encouraged where it makes no difference.  After charge phase everything fights as if it is algined for purposes of working out who is in and who is a Supporting File.  This may need a clarry - I'll need to check - as I may have implied charge combat as well.  I'll fix in new version.
e) It can be a bit messy, but trust me its much better than the mess created by forcing andalign.  Alas that sets up all sorts of gemy traps for opening up flanks.  Imagine you make contact at a fine angle - aligning could move you a massive swing and create flank charges against you that are quite unrealistic given your real direction of travel.  This is why it is optional - but recommended when it doesn't create issues.
f) in terms of aligning cavalry go first if acrive. Align is up to 1BW , so as they hit on the flank they can't.  Had the front one hit the front corner then they could.  The SuG can be displaced to allow this.  Makes it tidy.  [so in that situation I may well have deliberately done that to make it neater].  If cavalry choose not to, Infantry can do so if possible.  But they cannot align due to the other fight.

So in short, this one plays out with cavalry in melee being a frontal with a supporting file.  Complex one I will do a video on called "Frontal charges hitting side edges".  Essentially if you didn't get a flank bonus in the charge, you won't in the melee. The only exception are the two examples for creating a melee when in corner or side edge contact already.

Si
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nikgaukroger

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Re: Charge contacting to the flank edge question
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2019, 01:04:24 PM »
3. Assuming the cav stay where they are, and the infantry break, which way do the cav pursue, if they decide to? As if they were in front of the infantry? Or as they currently lie - this latter means that another gamey situation where despite being a frontal combat it can now cascade down the infantry flanks into another??

IIRC this one is covered by the rules - not quite sure where (not got rules with me), have a dig.
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Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Charge contacting to the flank edge question
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2019, 01:28:10 PM »
Page 96. 

If facing same direction troops may pursue directly ahead (therby picking up a target in that direction) ... note is says may so its a choice and not compulsory.
Otherwise wheel/turn to do whatever move gets you closest to the routers (as they are what yo are after).
Former is to reflect that at times in a pursuit a lovely target to front will be too good to miss out on.

Note in clarries where enemy are actually fighting in two direction they vanish and any in contact have the option to pursue directly ahead.
That refers to troops with enemy fighting them to two of font, flank, rear.

Si
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nikgaukroger

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Re: Charge contacting to the flank edge question
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 01:47:46 PM »
Knew it was in there somewhere  :)

I know I have deliberately not aligned in a melee so that a pursuit could choose to head off in a more advantageous direction - glad to see that I wasn't cheating  ;D
"The Roman Empire was not murdered and nor did it die a natural death; it accidentally committed suicide."