2021-10-30&31 - Derventio - Derby - 30th & 31st October

[LawrenceG]

Not many hoplite armies for a classical theme.

[rayfredjohn]

Not many hoplite armies for a classical theme.

I remember a Spartan army at one Derventio and I took an Early Macedonian with Spartan ally once. I'm no expert but Hoplite armies have 5 main problems. They have low scouting in PBS, they're slow, they hate terrain, they're easy to outflank, long spear have to be in 2 ranks to get the factor. Those weaknesses tend to compound. 

[LawrenceG]

I'm no expert but Hoplite armies have 5 main problems. They have low scouting in PBS, they're slow, they hate terrain, they're easy to outflank, long spear have to be in 2 ranks to get the factor. Those weaknesses tend to compound.

Isn't that compensated for by the low cost of the troops?

[rayfredjohn]

I'm no expert but Hoplite armies have 5 main problems. They have low scouting in PBS, they're slow, they hate terrain, they're easy to outflank, long spear have to be in 2 ranks to get the factor. Those weaknesses tend to compound.

Isn't that compensated for by the low cost of the troops?

Not if you want to be anything  other than +1 in impact and +1 in melee against foot.

[tarnowski1]

I'm no expert but Hoplite armies have 5 main problems. They have low scouting in PBS, they're slow, they hate terrain, they're easy to outflank, long spear have to be in 2 ranks to get the factor. Those weaknesses tend to compound.

Isn't that compensated for by the low cost of the troops?

a formed close citizen hoplite costs 99 points and has to fight in 2 ranks to be effective, so in reality 198 points
an average drilled flex Legionary with Melee expert costs 108 points, can fight in terrain, does not need more than 1 rank in charge and melee

it gets worse if you compare the superior versions
drilled close superior hoplite 146 per base, 292 per file of two
drilled flex superior Legionary, 151 points per base

a slight caveat, the Hoplites do have the shove characteristic. Though in reality that just gilds the lily.

[LawrenceG]

a slight caveat, the Hoplites do have the shove characteristic. Though in reality that just gilds the lily.

You can't gild a lily unless you have a lily (i.e. a really good thing) to start with. I assume you mean it does not make a significant difference to effectiveness.

So we can look forward to a points reduction for hoplites next year, then?

[rayfredjohn]

a slight caveat, the Hoplites do have the shove characteristic. Though in reality that just gilds the lily.

You can't gild a lily unless you have a lily (i.e. a really good thing) to start with. I assume you mean it does not make a significant difference to effectiveness.

So we can look forward to a points reduction for hoplites next year, then?

But they are great against mounted ..... so no points deduction

[LawrenceG]

But they are great against mounted ..... so no points deduction

I'm not sure that being great against troops you can't catch is worth a whole lot of points. And, apparently, nor is anyone else.

Classical might be a particularly foot-heavy theme, but hoplite armies were also conspicuous by their absence at LGT.

[rayfredjohn]

But they are great against mounted ..... so no points deduction

I'm not sure that being great against troops you can't catch is worth a whole lot of points. And, apparently, nor is anyone else.

Classical might be a particularly foot-heavy theme, but hoplite armies were also conspicuous by their absence at LGT.

Byzantine list had long spear. Just not a "Hoplite" army. I've used long spear in my Dyke jumping army. Did pretty well and much copied.  My army for Warfare will likely have some long spear. Just not a whole line of long spear stretched across the board.  Jason at Cross & Crescent have 4 (?) TuGs of Long spear in his army.

We are in danger of conflating Long Spear and Hoplite army IMHO

[LawrenceG]

So you are saying hoplite army is a "sour spot"* in the Long Spear ecosystem?

* or whatever the opposite of a "sweet spot" is.

I guess we'll have to see how Nik does with his 48 bases.

[rayfredjohn]

So you are saying hoplite army is a "sour spot"* in the Long Spear ecosystem?

* or whatever the opposite of a "sweet spot" is.

I guess we'll have to see how Nik does with his 48 bases.

Another example. African spearmen or whatever. Let's see how he gets on. Oh and all the other toys in his list.

I actually think massed spear is a good beginners army. I you can protect your flanks you won't get run down in two turns by anything.

[tarnowski1]

a slight caveat, the Hoplites do have the shove characteristic. Though in reality that just gilds the lily.

You can't gild a lily unless you have a lily (i.e. a really good thing) to start with. I assume you mean it does not make a significant difference to effectiveness.

So we can look forward to a points reduction for hoplites next year, then?

my argument was fantastic, are you suggesting its not Lily like?

[LawrenceG]

my argument was fantastic, are you suggesting its not Lily like?

It may well be lily-like, but reducing its force with a counter-argument is not gilding it.

[rayfredjohn]

my argument was fantastic, are you suggesting its not Lily like?

It may well be lily-like, but reducing its force with a counter-argument is not gilding it.

"Polishing a turd"

[mad lemmey]

   Fourth Derventio. This is an ancients themed competition at Boards and Swords in Derby next weekend.
As is traditional, a wooden spoon.


Thought these two fitted the theme!