Revision to Thai List?

[Ambiorix]

Hi Nik, Richard,
After years of absence, MEG brought me finally back to Ancients  wargaming and am delighted it has a separate Thai List (and is even depicted on the front cover of the Southeast Asia book).
However, I sincerely believe the list needs some updates/corrections:
First the date of the list, it starts only from 1351 CE, not sure where this date comes from but if you take into account that the 3rd ruler (and greatest general ) of Sukhothai, Ramkamhaeng, already died around 1317 CE  and that under his reign the kingdom reached its peak (reaching even into present Malay and Indonesia) I presume this is a typo and should be rather 1251 CE.
CAMPS : Thai armies always built a palisaded camp, including ditches and caltrops, so  a fortified camp certainly should be part of the options.
ELEPHANTS: The max is only 8 (low compared to nations where EL were not pre-dominant like the 12 for Champa or 8 for Malay. Khmer even has double this number). This is not representative as Thailand was (is) famous of its plentiful elephants, its armies having been reported to have more than 3,000.  One of the northern kingdoms was even called Lan Chang (translated as 'Million Elephants). So surely no lack of EL.  The later Thai king, Rama IV offered 500 war elephants to president Lincoln to help in the ACW (which he respectfully declined  .
ESCORTS : Each Elephant had a crew of 7 , 3 on its back, and 4 escort skilled swordsmen who acted as 'leg protectors' . All these crewmembers were considered the elite of the army so suggest upgrade El to 'sup' as Thai EL were certainly not inferior to their contemporaries (or arch enemies) like the Burmese.
CAV : Horses in Thailand were really scarce in those days (and still are) and predominantly used as scouts and mounts of lesser officers. Allowing max 16 bases seems a bit excessive, I would suggest max 4.
XBOW : Besides subject archers I do not see any crossbowmen in the list. I would suggest to at least include a similar unit of 8 Xbow as well.
JAVELINMEN :  I don't understand where the javelin skirmishers come from, I do not know of any use of such javelinmen in Thai armies, maybe augment the bow skirmishers instead, as these seem to be too limited in numbers.
ALLIES : none are mentioned, although Malay for example was conquered by Ramkamhaeng and became a vassal.
Not sure if these fit in the present rules, but the Thai Art of War book  (attributed to Ramkamhaeng) does mention stratagems like feigned flight, night attacks, simulating large reserves with porters, use of caltrops against enemy Elephants (and using protective 'shoes' for their own elephants).
Also I noticed in the rulebook, generals are not counted in EL combat.  However in practise they did. Not the person, but the generals' EL, as these were selected dominant male EL, which had an important effect on the other EL. At the time I made apparently a convincing case in the old FOGAM rules where this was adopted (only generals on EL had an effect in combat on other EL).
In case you need more info, I happily refer to my lengthy Slingshot article published in Jul 2003 (Issue 229) titled Sukhotai, Land of the White Elephant.
I hope above contributions are taking into consideration to reflect a more historical version of Thai armies.
Keep up the good work,
Cheers,
Martin

[lionheartrjc]

Thanks Martin,   I certainly wouldn't claim any significant knowledge about Thai armies so will take a look at your Slingshot article and look to revise the Thai list for 2022.

Richard

[badhabum]

I have known one Martin that was a fan of Thaï armies in Begium ..the same ?

[Ambiorix]

I have known one Martin that was a fan of Thaï armies in Begium ..the same ?

Hi, Indeed I am from Belgium (I guess the Ambiorix gave me away), and because there are not that many Thai armies around (especially in Belgium) I must be the same Martin .

[badhabum]

I did sent you a message Martin S.

You are in the Land of the Belgian MEG prophet

[Ambiorix]

oui, merci !

Martin, converted to the new faith....

[Nashsiam]

This is a great request Martin, and you have obviously done plenty of reseacrh. Could you possibly point me in the way of any good resources on Thai/Siamese military history? Even here in Thailand, good sources are hard to find, especially in English.
Cheers

[Ambiorix]

Kapkhun krap khun Nashsiam,
Yes I feel your pain, because good books in English, or even French and German, (we Belgians are blessed in having 3 national languages are rare, I was forced to do a bit of my own research.
This was done however almost 20 years ago (when Wikipedia was still at its infancy) and unfortunately, lot of website links don't exist anymore, although I have some print-out articles stored somewhere.  This included sites in Thai language from the Thai Army for which I got help in translations.  In addition, sites on contemporary Thai martial arts like Thai Boxing and 'FanDab' (2-swords fighting) had descriptions of ancient warfare because Ramkamheng's Tamrab Pichaisonkram (Book on the Art of War) included sections on the use of martial arts as well.
As I assume you reside in Thailand I presume you already visited the National Museum in Bangkok which has a great exhibition of ancients weapons and a stuffed war elephant (taxidermy pachyderm?   ) but also the original Tamrab book on the Art of War.   Not sure what you are looking for, but if interested in ancient Thai tactics and battle arrays I can recommend you the book of Quaritch Wales (Ancient South-East Asian Warfare, London 1952) which describes large parts of the Tamrab.  For colour depictions of troops I would refer you to the many Buddhist temples that often have murals of these, for example in Wat Suwan Dararam in Ayutthaya.
Military history is not so popular in Thailand. The late Thai prince Damrong Ryanubkab was a rare exception and wrote several books, a few translated in English – Our Wars with the Burmese for example.  I would recommend a visit to the Siam Society in Bangkok as these have also a lot of out-of-print history books in English, while I found the National Library to be less impressive. I haven't been to Chulalongkorn University but presume some history professors could be of help.
If you don't have the Slingshot article, send me a mail and can forward you a copy. As I was the author I reckon this is not an infringement of any copyrights  .
Let us know if you find anything new,
Cheers,
Khun Martin

[Nashsiam]

Hi Kh Martin

Yes, I live in Rayong, previously in BKK. I have visited the Nat museum, but a few years ago now. For murals, I would also recommend the military history museum at Kanchanaburi. I visited there when I first came to Thailand about 20 years ago, and I do recall it being pretty good. I think another trip there is in order. I had a quick search for those books and none seem available at the moment (except for outrages prices). However, my wife is a Chula alumni and she is looking into the Tamrab book there. However, that may be a bit difficult as it cannot be taken out of the library. The good news is I now have a copy of your article so will feast on that very soon.

Thanks for the help and I will keep you posted of anything I can find. Hopefully, we can have a game of MeG together here in the near future.

Chok dee!