first bulgarian empire

[badhabum]

I just read about Basil II campaing's vs the Bulgars . There are numerous INFANTRY battles ( might be dismounted warriors ) but mounted are not frequent except for raids. In MEG most are mounted and the infantry is not that good being poor .

Also that infantry could fight for some time and hold vs byzantine infantry and mounted ( city militia has LS which helps ) .

Still have to read Skylitzes but I just wonder if the Bulgarian list is not a bit too generous with the mounted and harsh with the infantry or should the mounted not have a dismounted caracteristic available ?

[lionheartrjc]

Certainly this is a period and army I don't know much about, so this is perfectly possible.

Richard

[nikgaukroger]

The only stuff I've read on the Bulgars is the Osprey on the Volga Bulgars so not exactly deep 

Give us a proposal then Jacques 

[badhabum]

Currently reading Dennis P. Hupchik

THE BULGARIAN-BYZANTINE
WARS FOR EARLY MEDIEVAL
BALKAN HEGEMONY

Interesting and available on kindle for those interested

[badhabum]

I have a question concerning the "slav" subject . They dissapear from 853 CE on ..
The Bulgars tended to be assimilated by there slavish subjects but in 922, Czar Siméon did mobilize a bulgar led slavish army  to conquer Greece . The recruitment being done among the slavs in Greece and Macedonia .

Sources are not very precise so infantry, cavalry ...my guess would be traditional slav style.

The slavs/bulgars would hold territory for 3 years .

So now how to define what army type it is ...KISS would be allow slav subjects at leat till 925 BCE

[badhabum]

So I finished Hupchik book's and try other sources.

So indeed the Bulgarian army is mainly shooty mounted. Not much infantry to speak of . Also Battles are quite unusual as it is more raid and sieges .

We do not have many information about the bulgarian host for the very few battles and battles were unusual indeed ! few and ..rarely 2 armies did deploy for battle. Once the Byzantine army just fled, two or three other battles were just one of the belligerent overrunning the enemy's camp at sunset ( twice the BYZ did it to Samuel )..so very difficult to determine what wa sin the army . Other conflicts did exist vs serbians, russ and so on but few description of the army . Once in the 800 did the bulgar use all what they had as infantry to complement the mounted, even women equiped with all kinds of weapons. Basil II campaing was different as it was mainly sieges and battle  just outeside cities . It is clear that the BYZ did use infantry and Bulgars some infantry but local militia or dismounted infantry it is rather difficult to find out .

So the list may still be discussed .

Why do the "slav" dissapear from the army list I do not know as slavs armies under bulgarian command did exist . I also found nothing to explain a LS poor militia as those "militia" the town's people were equiped with what was available and the Bulgarian empire did have a weapon reserve system . But what weapons is another debate .

But what is interesting is that following Hupchik's analysis of two battles, the bulgarian would have used " feigned flight" tactics .  So that army list could have the possibility of  having it and Hupchik is no MEG player that I know off  . If we are to believe him, in two battles, the byzantine army was to eager to charge and fell for the trick charging forward only to be caught on the flank by an ambush .

I will try to have more info but I really thinck "feigned flight" is a good idea .

[LawrenceG]

If we are to believe him, in two battles, the byzantine army was to eager to charge and fell for the trick charging forward only to be caught on the flank by an ambush .

I will try to have more info but I really thinck "feigned flight" is a good idea .

I think the MeG "Feigned Flight" characteristic doesn't really reflect what we would normally think of as a feigned flight historically. What the game models as a run away response to a charge is closer to what would be called a feigned flight historically. Even turning round and moving away from the enemy to stay outside charge range could be construed as a feigned flight - and what you are describing sounds more like this.

[badhabum]

That is what is described ..A bulgarian army running away, pursued by eager byzantines that do charge in disorder to catch the running away "routing" bulgars only to get caught in the flank ..so what ?

[LawrenceG]

That is what is described ..A bulgarian army running away, pursued by eager byzantines that do charge in disorder to catch the running away "routing" bulgars only to get caught in the flank ..so what ?

MeG "Feigned Flight" characteristic is not an army running away, it is one SuG that does _not_ run away (i.e. comes or remains within 3 BW or 1 BW).

It ought to be called "provocative skirmishers".

[lionheartrjc]

No reason the army shouldn't have the Feigned Flight characteristic.  I'll note it for a 2022 list change.

[badhabum]

I'll publish a bit more later