Later Crusader - Military Order options

Plantagenet · September 08, 2020, 04:44:33 PM

I'm not quite sure how the Military Orders section of this list is meant to be interpreted. As I read it I can take up to two MO contingents and each one can either be:

A mixed TUG of MO Knights and MO Sergeants

OR

One TUG of Brother Knights which will also allow me to take a further TUG of Turcopoles but in this case they are not a mixed TUG.

So the first option gives me a mixed TUG, the second gives me just Knights with the option for separate turcopoles too?

Was trying to fathom why there is the distinction between the labels of Military Order Knights in the first option vs Brother Knights in the second. Surely one could only enter the Military Orders as a Knight if you were already a knight as they didn't ordain their own and any knight was a brother knight, so why the distinction? Was wondering if the distinction was supposed to be for Teutonic Knights in the second option.

nikgaukroger · September 08, 2020, 07:18:53 PM

A military order contingent can have all of the Military Order knights & sergeants TUG(s), the Brother Knights and the Turcopoles or any combination of those. Thus a contingent could have at maximum 2 TUGs of the mixed units, the unit of Brother knights and the unit of Turcopoles if it wanted.The "----" separator line is a bit redundant and may well be left over from an earlier version where it was needed.

The terminology difference is, I suspect, just to separate units that are made up of knights + lighter troops and those which are purely (or mostly) knights - it is cosmetic. FWIW the major orders had different grades of knights - there were the full brother knights and then the associated confrere knights.

Plantagenet · September 09, 2020, 02:52:18 AM

Thanks.

Yes I'm aware of the Confrere knights, but still knights and still dressed as per their regular order counterparts (albeit there are some references to some equipment like the lance being slightly sub par, nothing concrete though and nothing referenced in surviving Templar inventories). My main concern is that the Brother / Turcopole section didn't relate only to Teutonic Knights who can often be seen in war-game rules being referred to as Brother Knights rather than the more generic Military Order Knights label used for Templars and Hospitallers. I did wonder if the term was to distinguish between the mixed tug version, in all honesty though I'm not sure the distinction needs to be made, a Knight is a Knight and a Sergeant is a Sergeant in that context, I find the distinction more confusing than helpful.

Also trying to work out if the differences between Mounted Sergeants in some cases are deliberate or a list error.

1) For the Separate Sergeants (5th down on list) they are Charging Lancer. Where the sergeants form the second row of a mixed TuG however they are not. I assumed that it was just because they were in the second row behind the Knights so didn't get Charging Lancer? Problem with that is that if the first base of Kn is killed, the second base of Sergeants may find themselves launching a combat on their own when they we surely be Charging Lancers? Or should they be Charging Lancer in all cases anyway?

2) With the 3rd Crusade option (3rd and 4th row), the Sergeants there are not part of a mixed TUG (unless they should be and it's just been missed out in error?) and they are also not Charging Lancer.

So, useful to know if they are list errors (with regard to their need to be a mixed tug for 3rd Crusade and with regard to the Charging Lancer classification) or, what the logic is with regard to some Sergeants being Charging Lancer and others not.

nikgaukroger · September 09, 2020, 06:58:40 AM

Quote from: Mars on September 09, 2020, 02:52:18 AM
1) For the Separate Sergeants (5th down on list) they are Charging Lancer. Where the sergeants form the second row of a mixed TuG however they are not. I assumed that it was just because they were in the second row behind the Knights so didn't get Charging Lancer? Problem with that is that if the first base of Kn is killed, the second base of Sergeants may find themselves launching a combat on their own when they we surely be Charging Lancers? Or should they be Charging Lancer in all cases anyway?

The classifications are deliberate - so the separate sergeants get the CL but the back ranks of the mixed formations do not - including the combat effectiveness.

Quote
2) With the 3rd Crusade option (3rd and 4th row), the Sergeants there are not part of a mixed TUG (unless they should be and it's just been missed out in error?) and they are also not Charging Lancer.

The 3rd/5th crusade options are covered by the "Mixed TUGS of 1/2 Knights and 1/2 Sergeants" line at the top - they are just a time limited part of the section. I can see that there could be some confusion and perhaps RJC can tweak in a clarry.

Quote
So, useful to know if they are list errors (with regard to their need to be a mixed tug for 3rd Crusade and with regard to the Charging Lancer classification) or, what the logic is with regard to some Sergeants being Charging Lancer and others not.

I'll let RJC cover the last bit as he has a better overview of the lists as a whole but I suspect part of it is that the rear ranks of these formations were mostly turcopoles by this stage.

lionheartrjc · September 09, 2020, 04:06:57 PM

There is no error in the list.
It is intentional that rear rank sergeants do not get CL. This is intended to represent the fragility of knight formations.

The Third/Fifth Crusade option is intended to be a mixed TuG. I will ensure it is clearer in the 2021 list.

Richard

Plantagenet · September 10, 2020, 04:24:17 AM

Thanks for the clarifications. Now I just need to persuade Legio Heroica to send me figures by regular post instead of (for here), 'Kiss of Death' DHL

Finding good figures for 15mm Crusaders is not as easy as I thought it would be !!

nikgaukroger · September 10, 2020, 06:55:42 AM

Giuseppe is very helpful and I'm sure he'll try and assist with the post if he can - he is one of the best suppliers out there IMO

Jilu · September 10, 2020, 11:09:39 PM

Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 10, 2020, 06:55:42 AM
Giuseppe is very helpful and I'm sure he'll try and assist with the post if he can - he is one of the best suppliers out there IMO

sadly he is quite ill....

nikgaukroger · September 11, 2020, 06:13:29 AM

Quote from: Jilu on September 10, 2020, 11:09:39 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 10, 2020, 06:55:42 AM
Giuseppe is very helpful and I'm sure he'll try and assist with the post if he can - he is one of the best suppliers out there IMO
sadly he is quite ill....

He has been rather under it, however, as of last week he seemed to be on the up after needing another precautionary hospital visit and tests. He was sending orders out for sure.

accard · September 11, 2020, 09:31:59 AM

Good news - he is a great guy.

marshalney2000 · September 11, 2020, 09:34:29 AM

I am embarrassed to say that he dedicated his Scottish spearman figure to me.
As has been said before he is a great guy who is a pleasure to deal with and provides superb customer service and communication.

Plantagenet · September 12, 2020, 07:03:36 AM

Quote from: Jilu on September 10, 2020, 11:09:39 PM
Quote from: nikgaukroger on September 10, 2020, 06:55:42 AM
Giuseppe is very helpful and I'm sure he'll try and assist with the post if he can - he is one of the best suppliers out there IMO
sadly he is quite ill....

Yeah we've mostly sorted it. Problem is just with DHL here. Kiss of Death, customs give them massive hassle, charge over the top on duty and 'misc' stuff. PITA really. Post Italiene is actually more expensive than DHL! Plan to send it to my brother in the UK then he'll split it and send here by Royal Mail, still cheaper than DHL here direct but without the hassle this end. Actually works out quite well as I can add a pack of FIB Welsh Spearmen to use as Ariere-Ban so I can morph parts of the army into European Feudal easier than I can if I was using Egyptians.

I did even ponder going with another army (PSC Romans maybe) but got my mind set on Crusaders and for me there's none better than Legio for that.