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Author Topic: Riders of Rohan  (Read 531 times)

Lanceflint

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2020, 01:07:35 PM »
I think that this list is improving each time it is tweaked.
Minima and maxima for Eored might be on the high side?
Shield wall for Horseless warriors is maybe too generous? But not if they were Eored and could then be ME?
But the list allows for options and after all LOTR is very much about personal interpretations and not least game balance too.
Lists are only essential for competition games when all must be seen to be fair and regulated, otherwise they serve as an excellent guide and provide thought for others to do their own thing.
Lance.

conjunctio

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2020, 10:52:05 AM »
From Thane Maxwell's army lists

1) The Rhovanion or Eotheod army lists 3rd age 1-1977 and 1856-2510 respectively.

2) Rohan third age 2510+

Rohirrim described as primarily charging cavalry armed with lance (long spear?), sword, shield and mail. There is no mention of double arming and good archers were described as in short supply at the Battle of Helms Deep. Horse archers are described and equipped with mail, sword and in a close support role in battle. They constituted perhaps a third of Eomer's riders pursuing the Orc raiders that captured the Hobbits. An Ally General represents the dual command of two Marshals when the King was not present. For Wulf's rebellion against Helm in TA 2758 there would be need for a Dunmen list. The cavalry (knights) could dismount and fight well as described at the Battle of the Fords of Isen and Pelennor and Morannon. Forming a shieldwall was also described at the former battle. The option to start dismounted relates to Grimbold and Erkenbrand's troops who lost their horses at the Isen but turned up to fight on foot. The Household Eoreds appear to be permanently standing so deserve a classification to reflect that (drilled). Other riders are inferred to manoeuvre effectively and feign retreat so their classification should reflect the same (see the account of the Battle of the Fords of Isen where 3-4 separate actions are described to give a fuller descriptive content of Rohan's military tactics).

Troops (by elements):
CinC the King, Reg Kn ordinary, 1.
Sub Gen as above, 1-3.
Ally, Reg Kn ord, 0-1.
Household and veteran Eoreds, Reg Kn Fast, 18-36 elements.
Horse Archers Reg LH superior, 6-18 (no more than a third of Eored).
Levy Eoreds Irr Kn fast, 0-18.
Levy spearmen, Irr Sp (O), 0-16.
Levy archers (as separate bow SuG or psiloi within the ranks), 0-12.
White Mountains Irr auxillia (O), 0-4.
Downgrade any knight cavalry to spear foot (Irr Sp ord) or Reg sword foot (ord), all/0/or by seprate commands.

Allies:
Gondor of the Steward.
Ents.

Terrain:
cold, waterway/rivers, road, BUA, woods, orchards, rolling hills, marshy ground.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 11:54:22 AM by conjunctio »

conjunctio

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2020, 11:44:33 AM »
Rhovanion then Eotheod lists Third Age 1-1977 and TA 1856-2510 respectively.

Credit again to Thane Maxwell.

A list that covers the 'Northmen' armies of Rhovanion (specifically located around the Brown Lands south of Mirkwood and east of the River Running). These were the precursors of the Rohirrim and longstanding allies of Gondor of the Kings (who may well have assisted them in turn as a provincial ally). They lived in tribal settlements centred on fortified burghs and were great breeders of horses. Vidugavia was their greatest King in the 15th century TA and Marhwini assisted Gondor at the Battle of Dagorlad in 1899. They were weakened by the great plague of 1636 (as were many 'Men of the West'), then subjugated by the Wainriders from the East in 1856. (As is often inferred in Tolkien mythos plague considered dark magic or an archetypal force made manifest by the main evil protagonist of the time archetype as proteon given form?). Remnants revolted and some regained their freedom in 1944 but not their numbers. The Eotheod become distinct by 1856 and settled the lands between Carrock and the Celebrant. Population pressure and the growing shadow of Dol Guldor forced them north into the Vales of Anduin under the leadership of Frumgar. Eorl the Young then led them to the crucial Battle of the Field of Celebrant to assist Cirion of Gondor, who gave them Calenardhon by way of gratitude.

Troops (by elements):
CinC Irr Kn Fast 1
Sub as CinC 0-1
Ally as Irr Kn Fast 1-2
Horse Irr Kn Fast 18-48
Horse archers Irr LH fast or superior 4-12.
Spearmen Irr spear inferior 0-24.
Levy Archers as Bow armed SuG or supporting bow in the ranks (psiloi), 0-12
Upgrade spearmen to armoured spearmen Irr sp ordinary, 0-50% of existing spearmen elements above.

Allies:
Gondor of the Ship Kings.
Kinstrife Gondor.
Later Royal Gondor.
Dorwinnian.
Woodmen (Eotheod only).

terrain:
cold, agricultural, woods, woods, river, hills gentle, orchards, vineyards, marsh, road, BUA

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2020, 03:33:49 PM »
Great chat and thoughts all.

For my two penneth.

I would see them all as SSp, DC, Melee Expert, Charge-only bow.
1 exceptional 4 and a Superior 4 for each leader.
And all as formed.

It also means they keep their +s in lightly roughed up terrain.
Which will give them a decent match for the wargs.

I think in this we want heroes, wizards and generals.  Any character could be any or all of them.
So then we have Eomer as a hero-general and and Eowyn as hero(ine).

Si

Leaving Drilled CL for the Knights of Gondor.

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Lanceflint

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2020, 07:58:09 PM »
However without any CL the top Eored loose a point of punch in the open. It also means that they are less affected by losing a base and therefore not qualfying for the DC. They are the Horse Lords after all and the guard should really be about as good as it gets?
I can easily live with the Exceptional Kings guard as it is easy to downgrade them.
The only other CL of any quality would be Gondorean knights for sure.
But its fantasy and open to so much interpretation!
Lance.

AntiokosIII

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2020, 10:55:59 PM »
Great chat and thoughts all.

For my two penneth.

I would see them all as SSp, DC, Melee Expert, Charge-only bow.
1 exceptional 4 and a Superior 4 for each leader.
And all as formed.

It also means they keep their +s in lightly roughed up terrain.
Which will give them a decent match for the wargs.

I think in this we want heroes, wizards and generals.  Any character could be any or all of them.
So then we have Eomer as a hero-general and and Eowyn as hero(ine).

Si

Leaving Drilled CL for the Knights of Gondor.

I have read and respect the arguments for making the Rohirrim SS and not CL. It is possible I am simply too much the dewy-eyed fanboy for Rohan to be objective here, but I just went and re-read the Pellenor Fields  battle. The Rohirrim charge into and smash through a huge mass of Orcs in a  fashion that looks in MeG terms like the Orcs mostly break at first contact. “Great wedges” of the Riders burst through the line  and smash into superior numbers of Easterling and Haradrim cavalry. Tolkien says these are  crushed as well,attributing the result to ‘the white hot fury of the northmen’ and their greater skills with ‘long spears and bitter’.  Both of these troop types are classed as SS. Is the +1 for DC plus possible shatters enough to account for this,or are we compelled to  believe that Theoden got really hot with green dice?   

I am fairly convinced that the Rohirrim relied on a impetuous overwhelming charge. To me,this is best represented by making them  CL, DC, ME, formed. This best represents the huge quality edge they enjoyed over most opponents,as well as the numerical disadvantage they usually fought against.

The discussion of Hero/Generals has given me an idea for a fix that might help solve the problem. This would be a special ability for ROhirrim Heroes. During a charge combat,  unit of riders in which a Hero is fighting in the front rank  gets a bonus we could call ‘onslaught’ or “FURY of the NORTH’ or something similar. If such a unit scores a Shatter result on the charge, all Riders within 3 BW of the Hero benefit from the Shatter  as if adjacent. Subsequent shatters have no additional effect.
With this in place,The Rohirrim would not need the CL characteristic. Players would have the King leading the charge at the head  of his Household, inspiring nearby troops to the peak of Northern white hot fury. Leaders and heroes of Rohan would always fight in the from,as they do in the HolyWrit.Units on their own without benefit of Heroes or Generals would only be slightly better than their opponents.Heroes and generals would be expensive enough that the Riders would usually be outnumbered. The Rohirrim would be highly vulnerable to getting nibbled to death by buckets of white dice. CL could be reserved for Prince Imrahil and his knightly contingent.

A bit outside the box, I confess, but I flatter myself it could make everyone happy?
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RocketSix

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2020, 03:17:11 PM »
Quote
Theoden got really hot with green dice?

But it wouldn't be green would it?  Its the same with all the similar dark age armies of this vein , you have to go big or go home. Lets think of Theoden as legendary. put him with the Kings Eored and lead from the front, intersperse with the martials guard and other Eored. Charging in with (SSP (1), DC (1) , Excp (2) , Leg (2)... that 6 factors, assume the Orcs are loose but have a SSP. So probably red & green/yellow vs black.  You cannot fail to get the shatter then you normal Eored to side are (SSp (1) , DC(1) and Shatter (2) .. so back to Red .. and there are no blanks. So the worst you would get is a shatter.

The the King with his drilled Eored, breaks off on a Green, and rinse and repeats next turn. I don't expect regular orcs will give much of a fight. Uruks might be a different proposition

Jason Broomer (and no doubt many followers) do similar with the Alexandrian companions.

AntiokosIII

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2020, 08:43:11 PM »
Actually you can easily fail to get the shatter, by rolling  a wound on the red and a blank on the yellow/green (or a second wound,still no shatter), but that isn’t the point. The point is those Rohirrim near, but not adjacent to Theoden and his wrecking crew of trained killers. I freely concede that Theoden and his Eored will be very hard to stop. The Riders more than 1 BW from him won’t benefit,though, and WILL be up only 1 against ss Cavalry Unless the player rolls lots of skulls or s’s on his green dice.  Theoden’s +6 by no means guarantees a shatter result.
I also do not find any reference to these troops breaking off to charge again. I still think they should be ‘formed’, as I thought you agreed several posts ago. This would not preclude the break off and charge again tactic, but it would make it harder to pull off.
IMHO the Horse Lords should be easily the best cavalry going, head and shoulders above the rest, with the possible exception of the Knights of Dol Amroth, which I take to be a picked bodyguard unit and not a large contingent.

Just my ideas.
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conjunctio

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2020, 09:13:03 PM »
Having just got a copy of MeG I started out trying to see if I could convert my existing DBM Tolkien Army Lists from Thane Maxwell before trying out a pacto learning game. Working my way toward setting up a small encounter based on where Sauron attempts an ambush with some orcs and easterlings of the vanguard of Rohan and Gondor army on it's way to the Morannon. I admit to not having played the game yet for how the nuances will work and trying to balance against Gondor Roquen cavalry and Dol Amroth and the 1st and 2nd age elite elf cavalry of Beleriand (the definition of 'superior').

Here is my initial idea for Rohan under Théoden/Eomer:

Household knights   CAVALRY   Drilled Close   Superior   Protected   Long Spear   -   -   DevastatIng Chargers   Melee Expert   Dismountable   -

Riders of Rohan   CAVALRY   Tribal Close   Average   Protected   Long Spear   -   -   DevastatIng Chargers   Fleet of Foot   Dismountable   -

Rohan Horse Archers   CAVALRY   Formed Loose   Superior   Protected   Short Spear   Experienced   Bow   Feigned Flight   Shoot & Charge   -   -

Rohan Household Infantry   INFANTRY   Formed Close   Average   Protected   Short Spear   -   -   Integral Shooters   Melee Expert   Shove   Shieldwall

RoRoh dismounted   INFANTRY   Tribal Close   Average   Protected   Short Spear   -   -   Integral Shooters   Shove   Shieldwall   -
Rohan skirmishers 0-30%*   INFANTRY   Tribal Close   Average   Protected   -   Experienced   Bow   -   -   -   -

Archers 0-20%*   INFANTRY   Tribal Loose   Average   Protected   -   Experienced   Bow   -   -   -   -

RocketSix

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2020, 08:52:29 AM »
Quote
The Riders more than 1 BW

thats the point though , you don't really get any where they cannot be influenced by their betters. 16 bases of Superior and Exceptionals and 24 bases of Average is works out to be about ~6K , thats giving you 8 tugs ... after costing generals and a few 'addons' you don't get anything else in a regular 10K army. There is a problem with the lists in that the min and max need review

As an aside if you make them CL when the same costs ~7K so you shrink even further.


Lanceflint

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2020, 02:23:05 PM »
Well if a legendary general leading exceptional lancers that are also devastating chargers against loose orcs that are DC too isnt enough, thats a +8 I believe, then we just have to live in hope!
The game system is very much set up to replicate this commitment of good generals leading good troops to pierce the enemy line. And if the charge should fail the melee combat is still at +5....
If the gods are against you, then so be it.
If the worry is that the Kings Eored cant win through then put another general led unit next to them?

I dont have a problem with shock cavalry breaking off to charge in again, because that is what good troops well led did, it is  a big drain on command cards though as a counterbalance.

Its all quite subjective in the end!
Lance.

Simon Meg-Meister

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Re: Riders of Rohan
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2020, 08:01:39 AM »
Another fine stream of thinking.  Si
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