What's wrong with Pike?

[LawrenceG]

Looking at the cost of Pike vs Long Spear, I see they are only about 1% more expensive.

Given that Pike are identical to Long Spear plus the option of upgrades if they are 3 or 4 deep, what is the disadvantage that justifies the extra cost being negligible?

[nikgaukroger]

IMO the benefits of extra claims when 3 or 4 deep are somewhat offset by the effects of narrowing the frontage. Points work for me.

[Princeps]

Interesting question, I cannot help but wonder if, LSp often being by 6-8 bases, one can really afford to deploy very wide : if deployed 3-4 wide, at least one file is 2 deep, which is the minimum to claim LSp factors.

Granted, hoplites or other units with shield cover might do so, but elsewhere it means the first loss costs you the benefits.

[LawrenceG]

IMO the benefits of extra claims when 3 or 4 deep are somewhat offset by the effects of narrowing the frontage. Points work for me.

Do you have any blog reports on the Long-Spear based armies you have used in tournaments?

[nikgaukroger]

There are a couple with Early Carthaginians.

[sstoker22]

long spear does not require 2 ranks to get +1 claim

The Shove benefit is by file I believe
2+ deep close order infantry in good going vs. loose or skirmish order infantry can cause
shove even if they do not have the characteristic.

SO you don't loose much

[sstoker22]

Sorry im wrong was reading Cavalry infantry need to be 2+ranks

[sstoker22]

But do not that the +1 is done by File as well in the example on page85 6.P: MELEE EXAMPLES.

So you only loose the benefit by file

[LawrenceG]

There are a couple with Early Carthaginians.

Hmm. At the end of the Badcon report you say "Overall I felt the theme was a success and allowed armies like the Achaemenids and hoplite based armies a theme in which they could be competitive." which suggests that hoplite based armies are not competitive otherwise.

At Derventio IV you mostly had the LSp units in 4 ranks anyway.

Put it this way, if the African Spearmen had a choice of being armed with Pike at 87 points instead of Long Spear at 86 points, would this be a tough decision, or a no-brainer?

[nikgaukroger]

Hmm. At the end of the Badcon report you say "Overall I felt the theme was a success and allowed armies like the Achaemenids and hoplite based armies a theme in which they could be competitive." which suggests that hoplite based armies are not competitive otherwise.

Armies, not troop types - more nuanced that just a comment on LSp or any other troop type for that matter.

At Derventio IV you mostly had the LSp units in 4 ranks anyway.

And? You see many infantry deployed 4 deep at times regardless of their weaponry.

Put it this way, if the African Spearmen had a choice of being armed with Pike at 87 points instead of Long Spear at 86 points, would this be a tough decision, or a no-brainer?

Would be a decision made after trying both; not straight forward for sure especially if all/none.

[LawrenceG]

So you are doubtful that adding, in effect, a special characteristic to Long Spear that gives them a +1 in combat whenever they happen to be in 3 or 4 ranks is worth even 1 point on an 86 point base?

Compared to a special characteristic that gives them +1 if the adjacent file got a skull or S result costing 4 points, or always a +1 in melee costing 16 points.

[nikgaukroger]

So you are doubtful that adding, in effect, a special characteristic to Long Spear that gives them a +1 in combat whenever they happen to be in 3 or 4 ranks is worth even 1 point on an 86 point base?

Isn't life weird 

[SteveO]

Don't forget the difficulty of turning pikes - it's not just melee factors.

[LawrenceG]

Don't forget the difficulty of turning pikes - it's not just melee factors.

I had forgotten about that.

By the way, the reference sheet prohibits both turn 180 with move and turn 90 with move, but the rules (pdf 4.D.11 and 4.D.12) do not prohibit turn 90 with move.

How often do players do a turn and move with their long spears compared to how often they are in melee in 3 ranks?

[lionheartrjc]

Don't forget the difficulty of turning pikes - it's not just melee factors.

I had forgotten about that.

By the way, the reference sheet prohibits both turn 180 with move and turn 90 with move, but the rules (pdf 4.D.11 and 4.D.12) do not prohibit turn 90 with move.

How often do players do a turn and move with their long spears compared to how often they are in melee in 3 ranks?

This is an omission from 4.D.12.