Charge target destroyed

[mark hargrave]

What happens if the target of your declared charge is destroyed before you move. 

It happened with a shoot and charge breaking its target and thus being removed. We played the charge still went ahead, but moving the full distance of charge.  Should we have stopped at the original position

[badhabum]

You charge the full movement . If the target is destroyed, you just try to follow the guys that flee . I suppose the target was destroyed by a shoot&charge ?

[Rino]

If the target is destroyed (nothing left) then full charge move
If target is broken, since the outcome of charge are sorted after the impact you still impact them and fight (without them replying) then during the outcome sub phase make the pursuit.

[lionheartrjc]

Terminology here is important.  UGs normally break and rout, rather than are destroyed. They are then removed after any pursuit move is completed. SuGs contacted by charging TuGs usually (not always) are removed immediately. Routers only move once and at specific points in the turn sequence.

So if I shoot & charge, shoot at a target and break it, it stays where it is until 2.8 in the turn sequence.  In 2.7 I will move my chargers, contacting the routers.  In 2.8 after KaB tests, the routers make a rout move and the normal rules for pursuit apply.  This could include contacting fresh enemy in the pursuit.

Note that fighting a broken unit is optional (page 152 9.5L:2).

Richard

[mark hargrave]

Thanks, seems I played it wrong. I had equated breaking with routing and thus KAB test, so took the fact that a unit breaks immediately at falling under half strength to also mean you immediately routed.

In this case it had an impact on the game  as what happened was the charge and shoot broke a unit, i immediately ( incorrectly it seems) applied KAB test to its neighbours who also broke, but who was being charged by a second unit.  If I understand your reply, I should have waited and done the melee for that second one, before applying the KAB test after melee. The first melee I could choose to fight or not, but with no response

[Dru]

Terminology here is important.  UGs normally break and rout, rather than are destroyed. They are then removed after any pursuit move is completed. SuGs contacted by charging TuGs usually (not always) are removed immediately. Routers only move once and at specific points in the turn sequence.

So if I shoot & charge, shoot at a target and break it, it stays where it is until 2.8 in the turn sequence.  In 2.7 I will move my chargers, contacting the routers.  In 2.8 after KaB tests, the routers make a rout move and the normal rules for pursuit apply.  This could include contacting fresh enemy in the pursuit.

Note that fighting a broken unit is optional (page 152 9.5L:2).

Richard

This is so important. Its the kind of element that might be worth having in a short video or a 'common misconceptions' document or something.

[badhabum]

Also people ( me included ) should sometimes think about the turn sequence and simply check 

[mark hargrave]

This had me reload at shooting chargers and breaking them, as I think I had played this wrong as well

So based on turn sequence they rout etc after charge combat, so does this mean that even if you break chargers by shooting them they still move in subject to slowing effect so could contact. But can't fight in the charge combat

[lionheartrjc]

This had me reload at shooting chargers and breaking them, as I think I had played this wrong as well

So based on turn sequence they rout etc after charge combat, so does this mean that even if you break chargers by shooting them they still move in subject to slowing effect so could contact. But can't fight in the charge combat

No routers do not move except as specified on page 165.  Breaking chargers before charge combat is a rare situation (in Maximus anyway), I think it has only occurred to me once.  It is more common in Pacto.

So if a UG breaks when charging, leave it where it is (unless it is a SuG that is automatically removed).  The UG that contacts the routers has the option of fighting (perhaps to kill a general) but without taking any losses in return.  When you come to the proper sequence you do KAB test, routs and pursuits as normal.  Note that any pursuers contacting fresh enemy during charge phase will fight immediately.

Richard

[mark hargrave]

Where does it say broken units do not move, the only reference I can find is that troops who are broken stop fighting and do not roll any dice,
so they get shot in 2.5.2, they don't rout till 2.8 and I don't see anything in 2.6 that stops them completing charge moves.   

As you say its rare but it will make a difference, the KAB test is based on where they are in section 2.8, so completing a charge (after slowing) will affect that

From a making sense point of view I can see the chargers being shot and running out of steam just before impact

[nikgaukroger]

Where does it say broken units do not move, the only reference I can find is that troops who are broken stop fighting and do not roll any dice,
so they get shot in 2.5.2, they don't rout till 2.8 and I don't see anything in 2.6 that stops them completing charge moves.   

There isn't - however, as it is a bit daft RJC is suggesting a common sense approach and why I suggested something in the errata/clarries would be useful.

It isn't that common but I have certainly broken chargers a few times as I have used a lot of shooty armies - I think when it has happened we have played it as per RJC's suggestion without actually looking at the rules as it was obvious to us that it should be like that.

[lionheartrjc]

Page 165 does say (9.7B:3)  "Routing UGs make a single rout move only and are removed from the table after pursuits."

[Simon Meg-Meister]

I put a lot of effort into getting the turn sequence as strong as possible as a tool.  Always a good place to fall back. 

Section 2 ...routs are part of 2.8 outcomes and therefore at the end.  There is deliberately not mention of routs at any earlier stage.

So if you break them.  You hit them. There is not fighting unless you want to do so for some reason (which I can imagine but remains your right).  They then rout at 2.8 and you pursue.

If you blow them away entirely with the shooting which will be very rare then you charge and don't hit them but might smash into something behind them. that could be especially exciting as KaB tests are also at the end so you might hammer the ones behind and there is STILL the KaB test for having destroyed and enemy TuG to claim.

Where does it say broken units do not move, the only reference I can find is that troops who are broken stop fighting and do not roll any dice,
so they get shot in 2.5.2, they don't rout till 2.8 and I don't see anything in 2.6 that stops them completing charge moves.   

As you say its rare but it will make a difference, the KAB test is based on where they are in section 2.8, so completing a charge (after slowing) will affect that

From a making sense point of view I can see the chargers being shot and running out of steam just before impact

I do love the wild freaky events and have to admit I didn't put a line into Shoot& Charge to account for the situation where it broke a charging enemy that had declared and not yet moved. But the logical version is that it is broken where is stands and does not move as the clear intent is that the only move a broken UG can make is a rout move. But needs a clarry I agree.  Never seen it happen yet.

Si