Melee sequencing

[LawrenceG]

In the diagram, A, B, C belong to player 1, XY to player 2.

Player 1 chooses C to fight first.

As C is fighting file XY, does this trigger all of XY's fights simultaneously, or only C vs Y?
If all of XY's fights are triggered, how would a "shove" by C be handled?

In the event, we fought only C vs Y. The result was C scored a "shove".

Now player 2 chooses a file to fight. Does he have to choose B because it is the "shove" combat or can he choose X because one of its fights is affected by the shove?

If he chooses X, does B get to roll its shove-benefitting dice before X gets its attack on A? (then if XY is broken by this attack, it does not roll against A)

[lionheartrjc]

Are we talking Maximus/Magna or Pacto?

If we are talking Maximus/Magna then the Active Player (1) chooses which file to fight first.  If they choose file C and the result is a Shove then the Player 2 is obliged to choose file B to fight next. Assuming the fight continues, Player 1 would then choose file A.

Pacto is different.   Player 1 chooses UG C.  The Shove gives a Bonus Roll (this is a Pacto difference in the new Pacto edition coming shortly).  Player 2 is then free to choose UG XY fighting A.  Player 3 then chooses UG B. 

[LawrenceG]

Thanks. It was maximus.

Suppose there was no shove. Then player 2 could choose X to fight. Would both A and B roll their dice at this stage, or just whichever one X directs its dice against?

If player 2 had first choice of file in the combat and chose file XY, would all the combats be simultaneous, so B and C could not benefit from each other's possible shove results?

[lionheartrjc]

If player 1 chooses C and there is no shove, then player 2 can choose X to fight either frontally (against A) or to flank (against B).  Because these are separate edges the rules about multiple bases giving a choice don't apply.

If player 2 has first choice they can choose to fight XY to front, flank or rear.  Normally they would choose A first.  If Y has a claim for a 2nd rank, then player 2 can choose either to add that claim to the frontal combat (in which case they don't roll against C) or instead not claim it and then roll a dice against C. 

Combats are never simultaneous.

If player 1 chooses B first.  The player 2 can choose not to roll the dice against B in the hope of surviving and later rolling the dice against A. (An unlikely choice, but it may make sense if X is unlikely to be killed and you want to try and break A).

NOTE IN PACTO - the rules are different.  UG XY always gets to roll once against each edge.  XY can claim the 2nd rank (if applicable) in the frontal combat.  Generally flank attacks are more deadly in Pacto which is why they get to roll on each edge.

(Before you comment further, I am looking at the rules to see if this is explained).

[LawrenceG]

If Y has a claim for a 2nd rank, then player 2 can choose either to add that claim to the frontal combat (in which case they don't roll against C)

Is this also true for a second rank that cancels an opponent's claim but does not generate an own claim? It seems to be within the spirit of the rule, but it's not explicit.

[lionheartrjc]

The rules talk about rank support.  Although not explicitly stated, rank support is either adding a claim for a rank or cancelling an opposing claim or effect by having the rank.  Rank support only applies if the base chooses to fight to its front.

[LawrenceG]

6.L.1.3 has both "rank benefits" and "rank support".

Cancelling an opponent claim is certainly a "benefit" so I think it is covered explicitly after all.
(BTW it's a bit confusing when the same thing is called two different names in the same sentence.)

I was thinking of the definition of "Engaged" which is

Bases who will contribute to a fight if viewed in their present position at the present time
- either fighting (including to flank or rear), providing necessary ranks to claim a + to a
front base, creating a benefit in the fight via a characteristic such as shieldwall, or as a
supporting file as either front rank or supporting ranks...

I was considering 2 ranks of mounted LSp cancelling mounted Melee Expert.
It's not "necessary ranks to claim a + to a front base"
It might be "creating a benefit in the fight via a characteristic such as shieldwall", but does a "weapon" qualify as " a characteristic such as shieldwall"?