Pursuing in Charge Phase and Being Charged after Pursuing in the Previous Turn

[Simon Meg-Meister]

FWIW People often shorten the +1 to "foot charging mounted" but it has never actually been that.  It has always been "vs. foot who are NOT standing to receive" which is defined in the glossary.  So important to remember what the factor really is as very deliberate.

Happy skull rolling and see many of you at BadCon.

Si

[LawrenceG]

Additional clarification will be useful here because:

An UG could declare a charge but stay in a position because the enemy charges first.

An UG could not declare a charge, have a forced charge, but stay in a position because the enemy charges first.

An UG could stay in a position because it skirmished but moved zero due to a low dice throw.

An UG that pursues in the fighting phase but fights its combat in the charge phase of the next turn stayed in its position during that charge phase.

I think we need additional clarification on what happens if foot pursue, and are charged by mounted in the next charge phase. Does this change if the pursuit hit something or the pursuit hit nothing?

The intention of 10.4 appears to be that the pursuing infantry that hit something count as "stand to receive" any new charges, but RJC's italics contradict that. If pursuers that  hit nothing do not count as "stand to receive" any new charges, then I think this will be a significant change to how we've been playing.  But if the UG's status vs new charges depends on whether they hit something or not in the previous pursuit, that is not mentally ergonomic.

FWIW It is intuitive that pursuers do not count as "stand to receive" versus whatever they pursued into.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

FWIW It is intuitive that pursuers do not count as "stand to receive" versus whatever they pursued into.

Indeed.  And intended so.  I grant you a could have been a bit more precise and complete.

So if they hit anything in the pursuit the intent is they are 'moving' for that charge phase whether in the game or next one. 

But we don't want memory effects in the game so once that pursuit is over buy completing the phase they are back to usual rules.

An UG could declare a charge but stay in a position because the enemy charges first.

lone charing they are 'moving' which is why the factors are the same for both.

An UG could not declare a charge, have a forced charge, but stay in a position because the enemy charges first.

. As above

An UG could stay in a position because it skirmished but moved zero due to a low dice throw.

I think its mute as all relevant ** factors are ones that skirmishers do not have.  Bitwould be as above.

An UG that pursues in the fighting phase but fights its combat in the charge phase of the next turn stayed in its position during that charge phase.

Considered 'moving'

I think we need additional clarification on what happens if foot pursue, and are charged by mounted in the next charge phase. Does this change if the pursuit hit something or the pursuit hit nothing?

. If the charge phase in which they are fighting their pursuit combat the are 'moving' otherwise its a fresh start with no memory effects.  Phases (of battle) are not fixed time amounts in the conceptual development of the rules but rather sequencing of events.

Hope that helps.

Si

[tarnowski1]

An UG that pursues in the fighting phase but fights its combat in the charge phase of the next turn stayed in its position during that charge phase.

Considered 'moving'

Si

Do you actually mean that or do you mean it counts as moving to the tug it contacted in the melee phase of the last turn, otherwise anyone that charges
it in the current charge phase gets to count it as moving as well.... which would lead to the question, if I pursued in the previous turn's melee phase I'd count moving in the next charge phase even if my pursuit hit nothing?

[LawrenceG]

Summary of my understanding so far:

Pursuit hits no fresh enemy:

This UG is treated exactly the same as an UG that did not pursue.


Pursuit does hit fresh enemy:

Not sure if files that did not contact fresh enemy are treated as "Pursuit hits no fresh enemy" above. Simplest to treat the whole UG as having charged for all combats, so I have assumed this, but not sure if it is intended.

This UG
Counts as having charged for combat against that fresh enemy.
Counts as having charged for combat against enemy that pursue into it later in the same phase.
Counts as having charged for combat against enemy that charge it or pursue into it in a later phase.
(pdf 8.D.10.4 is wrong and should be deleted).
Cannot shoot in the Charge Phase, but can shoot in the Shooting Phase if the pursuit was in the previous turn.

The enemy contacted by the pursuit can claim for Integral Shooters, if applicable.


Standing to receive:

An UG is standing to receive unless it declared a charge, marked a forced charge, countercharged, intercepted, skirmished or ran away (whether it actually moved any distance or not in any of those case), or counts as having charged (due to contacting fresh enemy in a pursuit).



Shieldwall:

Shieldwall "cannot be claimed by TuGs that have done a charge, countercharge, or intercept in the current phase".

"done a charge" means "declared a charge, or marked a forced charge, even if it didn't actually make a charge move because the enemy charged first; or counts as having charged (due to contacting fresh enemy in a pursuit in the current phase)."


Is that correct?

[tarnowski1]

One to add to the mix, when does combat count as starting?

if I pursue in the melee phase and hit fresh enemy can I then expand out in the same melee phase in 5.5 of the turn sequence?

[lionheartrjc]

One to add to the mix, when does combat count as starting?

if I pursue in the melee phase and hit fresh enemy can I then expand out in the same melee phase in 5.5 of the turn sequence?

I believe this was discussed and the decision taken that it is immediate.  This has implications for both pursuers and those pursued into.  The pursuers potentially can create new files (MF1) and those pursued into can turn to face a flank (MF2).  Obviously you must have cards to do this.

This is a difference between the charge phase pursuit and the shooting or fighting phase pursuit.

[LawrenceG]

One to add to the mix, when does combat count as starting?

if I pursue in the melee phase and hit fresh enemy can I then expand out in the same melee phase in 5.5 of the turn sequence?

I believe this was discussed and the decision taken that it is immediate.  This has implications for both pursuers and those pursued into.  The pursuers potentially can create new files (MF1) and those pursued into can turn to face a flank (MF2).  Obviously you must have cards to do this.

This is a difference between the charge phase pursuit and the shooting or fighting phase pursuit.

Yes, I think it has been stated before that you are in combat as soon as you are in a position to fight, you don't have to wait until the melee phase, so e.g. a supporting file is a supporting file during the shooting phase before it has fought any combats.

I don't see how this is any different whatever phase you pursued in, although you would obviously have to wait until the appropriate time in the sequence to execute the MF1 or MF2.

An interesting quirk, if I understand the rules correctly, is if pursuers pursue into a flank and the impacted UG turns to face that flank, the pursuers still qualify for the flank charge bonus in the subsequent charge phase (because you qualify at the time you charged). But would the bases that turned get their factors for fighting to their front in the charge phase, or would it be the inverse case of a base hit on the flank edge by a charge that does not qualify as a flank charge?

[lionheartrjc]

An interesting quirk, if I understand the rules correctly, is if pursuers pursue into a flank and the impacted UG turns to face that flank, the pursuers still qualify for the flank charge bonus in the subsequent charge phase (because you qualify at the time you charged). But would the bases that turned get their factors for fighting to their front in the charge phase, or would it be the inverse case of a base hit on the flank edge by a charge that does not qualify as a flank charge?

Nice spot!  That is what the rules say!   (page 60). 
I don't think "fighting frontally" has been defined.  The rules however imply at various points it is how you are attacked that determines this, so if the opponent is claiming the flank charge then you cannot claim to be fighting frontally.

[Jilu]

Integral Shooters give charge combat claims against chargers when standing to receive a charge from ahead of their front line (p 124 PDF edition).  A pursuit is treated as a charge so enemy contacted ahead of their front line by pursuers can make charge combat claims against pursuers.
Shieldwall cannot be claimed by TUGs that have done a charge, countercharge or intercept in the current phase.  So if a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Charge Phase and contacts fresh enemy it will not be able to claim Shieldwall (as the combat will be in the same phase).  If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn).

Note: Pursuers are not standing to receive, so if the pursuers had long spear and they are charged by lancers (CL), the lancers will be able to make the charge claim for CL.

Richard
[/i]

Not clear to me :

okay if :  If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn).

What about the integral shooters ? do they count in the next phase ?

[nikgaukroger]

Not clear to me :

okay if :  If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn).

What about the integral shooters ? do they count in the next phase ?

An UG that pursues is treated as charging so it will not be able to claim shieldwall or claim for integral shooters.

In a previous reply you said "If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn)."

[lionheartrjc]

I managed to get myself confused!
An UG that pursues is treated as charging so it will not be able to claim for integral shooters.
An UG that pursues in the fighting phase is not charging in the current phase so can claim Shieldwall.
Apologies. 

[Jilu]

I managed to get myself confused!
An UG that pursues is treated as charging so it will not be able to claim for integral shooters.
An UG that pursues in the fighting phase is not charging in the current phase so can claim Shieldwall.
Apologies.

it is a bit confusing.

So pursuing in the charging phase, no claims for integral shooters, shieldwall, if foot they are not standing to receive?
If pursuing in the fighting phase, they can claim everything available, even standing to receive in the  charging phase of the next turn ?

[nikgaukroger]

It is a bit, but I think Richard's post a few days ago explains.

COMMENTARY

10.1 shows that a pursuit move that contacts enemy is treated as a charge.

10.4 is actually redundant, it achieves nothing. (For information, it was introduced as a clarification, but it actually achieves nothing).

The key concept is Standing to Receive.  The important bit is "staying in position".  The examples "not having declared a charge, run away, skirmish, countercharge or intercept."  Pursuit should be added to this list.  Troops pursuing are not standing to receive.

So to answer the original questions in the WhatsApp group:

Integral Shooters give charge combat claims against chargers when standing to receive a charge from ahead of their front line (p 124 PDF edition).  A pursuit is treated as a charge so enemy contacted ahead of their front line by pursuers can make charge combat claims against pursuers.

Shieldwall cannot be claimed by TUGs that have done a charge, countercharge or intercept in the current phase.  So if a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Charge Phase and contacts fresh enemy it will not be able to claim Shieldwall (as the combat will be in the same phase).  If a unit with Shieldwall pursues in the Fighting Phase it will be able to claim shieldwall (as the combat will be in the charge phase of the next turn).

Note: Pursuers are not standing to receive, so if the pursuers had long spear and they are charged by lancers (CL), the lancers will be able to make the charge claim for CL.

Richard

See also the errata item on the glossary definition on Standing to Receive - https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2787.0

[lionheartrjc]

So pursuing in the charging phase, no claims for integral shooters, shieldwall, if foot they are not standing to receive?
If pursuing in the fighting phase, they can claim everything available, even standing to receive in the  charging phase of the next turn ?

Not quite.
Pursuing troops that contact new enemy NEVER count as standing to receive.
Troops that pursue in the fighting phase can count Shieldwall as Shieldwall will apply as long as the charge is not in the same phase as the combat.
Troops that pursue in the charge phase cannot count Shieldwall if they contact new enemy.

Richard

I have modified this response as Lawrence has correctly pointed out, if the pursuit does not contact new enemy then it is not treated as a charge.