Visibility

[accard]

Question from a game the other night.

When troops are in a terrain type which says visible at 'x' BW, what is the visibility out of such terrain?

[lionheartrjc]

This is an old chestnut.

Visibility is within the terrain.  There is no limit of visibility outside terrain.  So you cannot shoot without being seen.  If you are on the edge of a forest, you cannot shoot out of the forest without being shot at.

Richard

[accard]

Thanks - so if you shoot you can be seen.

But if you are more than 'X' BW inside the terrain, can you see out to shoot? (And thus also be  shot at). I would think no.

[lionheartrjc]

Thanks - so if you shoot you can be seen.

But if you are more than 'X' BW inside the terrain, can you see out to shoot? (And thus also be  shot at). I would think no.

Correct.  If visibility within the terrain is 2BW, you cannot shoot through more than 2BW of terrain.  My interpretation is that both front corners to a point on the target base must not track through more than 2BW of the terrain.

With the effects of reduced ranks and cover this means shooting in some types of terrain is pretty futile.

Richard

Richard

[accard]

Ok thanks - I think I am good on visibility.

But possibly confused on cover.

Would you be able to clarify the three following cases please:

1) A UG at the front edge of an orchard, with its front edge coincident with the edge of the orchard. Both it and any target it shoots at in the open count as in cover, as per the notes on the terrain chart "any target shot at from ....terrain"

2) a UG at the front edge of vineyard, with its front edge coincident with the edge of the vineyard. It counts as in cover, its target in the open does not, as there are no notes on the terrain chart for vineyards.

3) a UG in a vineyard, but with its front edge back from the edge of the vineyard by a few mm. Both it and any target it shoots at in the open count as in cover, as per p156 pt 4, as the lines from its front corners pass through terrain that would provide cover.

regards Andrew

[lionheartrjc]

Yes,  I hadn't spotted this difference with vineyards.

Richard

[accard]

But currently, as written,  the three interpretations I list are correct?

[lionheartrjc]

I am not sure I agree with 3 as the target isn't fully within the Vineyard - so cover doesn't apply (page 156 pt 4).   The difference from Orchards being that cover doesn't apply if shooting from or through the terrain.

I will check with Simon but my guess is that this is intentional as their is nothing "overhead" in a vineyard to impede your shooting.

Richard

[accard]

But 156 point 4 speaks only of lines passing through terrain giving cover. So if the shooter is fully inside and the target is outside the line is still being traced through such terrain - both ways. So on that understanding both targets are in cover.

To be honest I hadn't seen it that way, but someone at our club did, and that seems to be the literal reading of the rule.

I agree that shooting from a vineyard would logically be unimpeded, as the terrain sheet seems to be indicating. But 156.4 makes no exceptions for vineyards.

[lionheartrjc]

But 156 point 4 speaks only of lines passing through terrain giving cover. So if the shooter is fully inside and the target is outside the line is still being traced through such terrain - both ways. So on that understanding both targets are in cover.

To be honest I hadn't seen it that way, but someone at our club did, and that seems to be the literal reading of the rule.

I agree that shooting from a vineyard would logically be unimpeded, as the terrain sheet seems to be indicating. But 156.4 makes no exceptions for vineyards.

But 156 point 4 only applies to terrain that provides cover for shooting.  If the target is in open terrain, cover cannot apply.

[accard]

But it doesn't mention that it applies only to targets in cover.  It mentions only lines that pass through terrain, which applies if the shooter is in terrain and  the target is out. I guess this is only applicable to vineyards anyway, as other cover providing terrain types have the explicit note that targets shot at from or through such terrain get cover.

There is also the situation if both targets are in the open but there is some terrain intervening between them which one of the shooting line must cross. (We had such a situation the other night)  This is what I had largely assumed was the situation that point 4 was trying to address.

Richard, I am not trying to be difficult here, I am just slightly confused, and am trying to get it straight in my mind.

If my current understanding is correct, then if point 4 read 'Except for vineyards, where either line etc,' it would make sense to me, as all other cases seem covered by the terrain chart notes. Pt 4 would be clarifying the situation where only one of the shooting lines is obstructed.

I could be completely off the mark though.

[lionheartrjc]

You are correct about the other situations. It does appear that Vineyards are the exception for 156.4.

Richard

[GEOFFRM1]

As vines themselves do not provide cover I would imagine that what gives a unit cover is the wall or fence around the field much like a boundaried field.  That would explain why vineyards are not classed as a wood.

Geoff