southern Mapuche

[Roger]

Hi Guys what happened to southern Maputche, missing completley from list?

[lionheartrjc]

It will be a renaissance list.

Richard

[mad lemmey]

Could we have clarification as to why?
As Roger said on another thread, they predate the Renaissance by a good way!
I know the list was nerfed after Pete S smashed you with it, but no need to delete it entirely. 
If they are a Renaissance list, why not anything after 1485, which stops all Mezi-Ametican and Inca, all Italian Wars and the three decent Sanurao lists?

[nikgaukroger]

As Roger said on another thread, they predate the Renaissance by a good way!

As a point of information the Southern list did not start until 1536.

As to when you date the start of the Renaissance, that is a whole different question 

[grahambriggs]

As Roger said on another thread, they predate the Renaissance by a good way!

As a point of information the Southern list did not start until 1536.

As to when you date the start of the Renaissance, that is a whole different question 

That's an odd date to start. They were around for centuries before, though we have no written record. They fought the Incas at the Battle of the Maule which is held as late 15th century in early sources, 1532 in others.

[lionheartrjc]

I must admit, I hadn't realised there was any information about the Southern Mapuche prior to contact with Europeans.  It probably justifies being reinstated with an earlier date range.  Can anyone point me to a good source of information? 

Richard

[RocketSix]

The Ian Heath book is good.

The Mapuche lists were drawn before REG was a thing, and was at best trying to be inclusive. The 1536 is the incursion of Almagro (Battle of Reynogüelén) it is bit arbitrary but has some information, before then info is t-h-i-n. With the benefit of hindsight the Southern Mapuche should never be in MEG, and REG is its place. However, that genie is out of the bottle.

Here is my rationale for the list



If we use the Spanish cultural groups (for simplicities sake) the Northern Peoples - Pincuche, occupied to the north of Rio Maule, the Southern Peoples (Huilliche)  below that.  The main contact with the Spanish an the Southern Mapuche was just to the north of Temuco (in 1598 Battle of Curalaba) - this was after 1556 with the adoption of the long spear (from Heath)

The Pincuche raided Santiago in 1541. As the cultural grouping is artificial then its hardly surprising that the border between the two is fuzzy

SO - here is the MEG part. Inca Yupanqui did fight the Mapuche around 1450-70 (Battle of the Maule) so that would put in the territory that the Spanish would call Huilliche (Southern Mapuche). But There is nothing to support the fact that the Southern Mapuche used long spear and I would say that this is covered by the Northern list (which it says in the list notes)

Knowing what we know now - IMHO ideally for Meg there would be a single Mapuche list which would end at the point of Spanish conquest 1530~ (Based on a recent conversation with Richard and Simon) . The list would be what is now the Northern list

But as its stands 2021 sans Southern is really as good as it needs to be for MEG.

thanks
Simon

[nikgaukroger]

I must admit, I hadn't realised there was any information about the Southern Mapuche prior to contact with Europeans.  It probably justifies being reinstated with an earlier date range.  Can anyone point me to a good source of information? 

Richard

There is the Slingshot article in issue 222 - but suspect you've looked at that.

[RocketSix]

Interesting take on Mr Smithson slingshot article by Luke U-S

http://lukeuedasarson.com/MapucheDBM.html

[lionheartrjc]

The 2020.01 Southern Mapuche list may be included in 2021 tournaments at the discretion of tournament organisers.

[nikgaukroger]

On this basis it is allowed at the London GT/Skull Rollers competition - https://mortem-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1561.0

[grahambriggs]

Since the Moche are in there it would make sense to have the Southern Mapuche. Armament classification might be an issue. They had fairly long spears but no anti cavalry drill.

[martymagnificent]

Probably just loose order longspear like the Canari and similar.

Martin