Shooting in charge phase

[Paul Marsh]

I get the shooting at chargers/counters bit of this. One thing I cannot find is shooting at troops who stand to recieve a charge other than by the chargers themselves.
Currently have a game where some Lancastrian bowmen are being charged by Galloglaich. Unfortunately for the bowmen they have skirmishing Irish horse and kern to flank and rear within 1BW but cannot find anything allowing them to shoot the bowmen who are standing to receive.
No point waiting as by the shooting phase there is likely to be a fight going on and they cannot shoot then either.

[nikgaukroger]

I get the shooting at chargers/counters bit of this. One thing I cannot find is shooting at troops who stand to recieve a charge other than by the chargers themselves.

There isn't any to find 

Currently have a game where some Lancastrian bowmen are being charged by Galloglaich. Unfortunately for the bowmen they have skirmishing Irish horse and kern to flank and rear within 1BW but cannot find anything allowing them to shoot the bowmen who are standing to receive.
No point waiting as by the shooting phase there is likely to be a fight going on and they cannot shoot then either.

You can shoot at a unit that is in combat, but not at the bases that are fighting or who are contributing to the combat (e.g. a second rank of Long Spear - see page 156 D. . So in your case the horse and kern could well shoot the bowmen.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Hi Paul

The only troops that do that have Shoot and Charge or Charge only shooting.
Soften them up otherwise by denying charging.

Si

[Paul Marsh]

To clarify then, basically if the situation remains the same but the bowmen counter charged they could be shot at but as they are standing to receive they cannot be shot at?

[Nick2729]

I am intrigued as to why you would choose to counter charge with archers and not stand and shoot at 1BW range before charge combat.

Or am I missing something?    (Probably! )

[Paul Marsh]

Quite right about that, why would you. I was just following on, hypothetically, from the real example I currently have.
Substitute say spears for the bows. If the spears charge or counter charge the enemy to their front they can be shot at by the units within 1BW to flank and rear. If they stand to receive said charge they cannot be shot at during the charge phase. Just trying to get my head around that.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

So the concept it that is would be natural fr shooters to concentrate fire on chargers as an immediate threat.
So probably wise to stand and not make everyone point them bows at you.

[Paul Marsh]

OK so as far as I understand it shooters evn if not being charged themsleves can shoot at enemy chargers to their front passing within 1BW.
However,  the same shooters cannot shoot at enemy standing to receive a charge: in other words they cannot support their own guys going in?

[Nick2729]

That's what they were doing in their previous shooting phase - which takes place before the charge at the start of this turn.

Or at least thats how I see the time line...........

[peter c]

Hi Paul,Nik,Simon

I think Paul`s query is very valid and Nik`s comment on shooting in previous move is missing the point. An UG is at the end of the line in single file and in the previous move an UG lets say Numidian Light horse move from a non shooting position  into a shooting position 1bw from the flank/rear of the target UG. The target UG is charged by a friendly UG (without shoot and charge characteristic) to the front expecting supporting fire from the Light Horse to soften them up prior to contact. With this interpretation you would never be able to do this and under the rules never get to shoot. I am not sure this is reasonable. Your views please on this situation.

[nikgaukroger]

Whilst I can see the point the OP is making I have never found the rules as they play out on the table top to give an unconvincing or unbalanced result - and shooty armies do seem to be my thing so I think I can speak with confidence here. If you have troops in the right position (as the OP mentions they did have I believe) they can get to shoot in the shooting phase after the charge - this cumulatively gives you the effect just spread over 2 phases (which is just a game mechanism for things that would have been happening simultaneously).

So basically I'm quite happy with the rules as they stand getting the right result and the game balance is good as well. Even if there was an opportunity to do so I would not be advocating a change.

BTW - not me making comments on shooting in the prior move, that was Nick.

[Simon Meg-Meister]

Hi Paul,Nik,Simon

I think Paul`s query is very valid and Nik`s comment on shooting in previous move is missing the point. An UG is at the end of the line in single file and in the previous move an UG lets say Numidian Light horse move from a non shooting position  into a shooting position 1bw from the flank/rear of the target UG. The target UG is charged by a friendly UG (without shoot and charge characteristic) to the front expecting supporting fire from the Light Horse to soften them up prior to contact. With this interpretation you would never be able to do this and under the rules never get to shoot. I am not sure this is reasonable. Your views please on this situation.

All worthy stuff to ponder.

Its about timing.  You soften them up the previous turns by getting into the right position. It makes it more of a challenge which is a good thing and tactically crates a difference between normal troops and shoot and charge troops that were specialists at doing so immediately prior to charging.

I seriously doubt there was that much coordination of that type in the fast motion between UGs in reality.  The softening up for a charge is a long process.  Indeed at Charrae took an entire day before the cataphracts went in. Being charged is a bit different, as everyone would instinctivily pour fire onto the unit being aggressive.  It's a there and now clear and present danger. Hence the reasoning in the rules from a reality perspective.

Trust me it plays better this way. It gives the character if Byzantines say vs. Numidians who would take considerable time to soften up enemy.  `As an aside numidians mainly broke enemy on their own in due course rather them softening up for others -which is actually why they work in Mortem et Gloriam with Skilled shooter.

If you go the other way - which I did try in development - it is far too easy a game for shooty cavalry and it leads to rather unrealistic bevahiour without the enemy having any chance to react with choices.  And choices and balance are what make for great games.

Si

PS Also if you get to the side of something that has spare unengaged bases you can shoot at them anyway even if they are in combat. NUmidians behind a second line of Romans can get pretty horrible ....