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Messages - LawrenceG

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61
List Queries / Re: Proposal for Elephant Mounted Generals
« on: November 22, 2023, 06:20:39 AM »
If the points cost of elephants is based on them not being able to be helped by generals, is allowing some generals to help them going to imbalance things?

Just mentioning it to ensure it gets considered by the people best qualified to make a judgement.

62
NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).'

If a charging tug makes side edge to side edge contact with a SUG, the SUG has been contacted by a charging TUG and should be destroyed, shouldn't it?

I'm guessing the TUG is within 1 base width of breaking otherwise yes the sug should be destroyed.
So a great way to eliminate a SUG is to charge something next to it so you end up in side edge to side edge contact and it has no opportunity to evade?

63
NB a charge (or indeed a move not entering a CPZ) can end in side edge-to-side edge contact with an enemy UG that was not the target of the charge. The enemy UG has not been charged so cannot skirmish or run away. If permitted, that enemy UG could use 9.4M to initiate a combat in the melee phase and the unit that charged could respond with MF1 and MF2 moves. Indeed, this is valid even if the enemy UG is a SuG in the open and the unit that moved or charged was a TUG. (It is a situation where a SuG can initiate a melee combat in the open against a TuG).'

If a charging tug makes side edge to side edge contact with a SUG, the SUG has been contacted by a charging TUG and should be destroyed, shouldn't it?

64
List Queries / Re:Cost of Exceptionals - too low?
« on: November 16, 2023, 01:10:45 PM »
Now they are more expensive and less likely to distort an army perhaps you could consider using Exceptional in one two more places? For example (and hopefully not to revive an argument that got put to bed) how about an Exceptional, Unprotected, Fleet of Foot Almughavar unit? The pro would be that it would get closer to the described historical performance (basically charge everything and run it over!), the con would be that there were no guard units as far as I know, all the Almughavars were equally scary ... and it would definitely be distorting to make them all Exceptional!!!

If everyone is exceptional, then nobody is. Would be interesting to try out in a friendly game, though.

65
Quality upgrades for being a veteran do not (just) represent length of service. They need to reflect those troops actual effect in relation to their historical enemies and give the army they are in the right feel on the table top.

It is, necessarily, a somewhat subjective thing - and I'm glad that RJC has the thankless task of being the final arbiter* of that and not me  ;)  ;D



* FWIW I think he gets it pretty right; there is the occasional case where I don't agree, but hey, thats life  :-X

What historical cases lead to Romans getting it?

I note that Alexander's veterans, who beat everyone they met, including elephants, even when they were past retirement age, don't get upgrades.

66
List Queries / Re: Re:Cost of Exceptionals - too low?
« on: November 16, 2023, 10:40:06 AM »
There does seem to be a problem that Exceptional troops should be more expensive.  In my view Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Exceptional should be more expensive (by a little) than Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Superior, Short Spear, Melee Expert.

Richard

That formula says exceptional should be a multiplier of a little more than 1.87 for infantry and 1.92 for cavalry.

The other benchmark you could use is the upgrade from superior to exceptional is the same in effect as upgrading from average to superior. Therefore the multiplier should be 1.4 x 1.4 = 1.96 .

67
List Queries / Re: Points Systems
« on: November 16, 2023, 08:35:41 AM »

The majority of UK players don't make it into the top 5 at tournaments. At the most, only 5 do at each tournament.

As we do not see any UK players in continental Europe well yes one  ...except next week two do goe to Athens

I meant the majority of UK players don't make it into the top 5 at UK tournaments.

68
List Queries / Re: Re:Cost of Exceptionals - too low?
« on: November 15, 2023, 11:24:07 PM »
There does seem to be a problem that Exceptional troops should be more expensive.  In my view Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Exceptional should be more expensive (by a little) than Drilled Close infantry or Drilled Loose cavalry, Superior, Short Spear, Melee Expert.

Richard

That formula says exceptional should be a multiplier of a little more than 1.87 for infantry and 1.92 for cavalry.

69
List Queries / Re:Cost of Exceptionals - too low?
« on: November 15, 2023, 09:22:16 PM »
What are the multipliers for ME and SSp?

70
List Queries / Re: Changes to "barbarian mercenaries" vis a vis Romans
« on: November 15, 2023, 02:47:24 PM »
I completely agree with Roger's opinion on that, such major changes should be optional

These changes will bring imbalance in the match ups of existing army lists in the same manner each new edition of warhammer 40k brings


The trouble with making changes optional is you can end up where everyone has so many options that all armies are the same.

The changes won't make much difference to balance in army matchups because the change in capability of units is balanced by the change in the points you pay for them. They might mean you need to adapt your tactics, which is annoying when your army was at a sweet spot, but war is hell.

The specific change under consideration in this thread (it seems to me) will not make much difference anyway. If the barbarians are close enough to have a forced charge as DC, the Romans will probably want to charge them anyway. A white shot followed by a white has the same expected number of wounds as 1 green. You miss out on shatters, but they only happen 1 time in 3 and often don't change the results of the neighbouring files.

71
List Queries / Re: Re:Cost of Exceptionals - too low?
« on: November 15, 2023, 02:08:32 PM »
[

Whist true, fortunately the situation does not occur in the army lists (I believe).

Do you mean there is no list within which the exceptionals are cheaper than the sup ME version of the same thing?

Or

There is no army with superior ME troops that could meet another army with the exceptional version of the same thing for cheaper?

72
List Queries / Re: Points Systems
« on: November 15, 2023, 12:22:17 PM »
My feeling is the way MeG works, if you can stack enough plusses on a 15 base frontage so that you are pretty much guaranteed to beat whatever is in front of it in any terrain, you are pretty much guaranteed to win all your games.

Hence Romans seem overpowered.


My first game at Skulls was against a Roman with exceptional and superior legions. Etruscans can't match that although the Samnite linen legion are equal in melee to superior legions. In the whole game I was able to limit the exceptionals to one combat that they entered late in the game and they did not break the TuG they hit.

Romans are good but the superior and exceptional legions are expensive which seems fair as they are actually rather good.

"Pretty much" not "Absolutely".  The point is, nearly all your units had a +1 in charge and melee, but it was still you that needed the cunning plan. Fortunately, you are cunning enough.

73
I wonder whether a part of the issue is Romans get to upgrade a lot of bases as "veterans" and to exceptional, but their opponents don't.

Romans (ignoring cavalry)
CR 4 so no-one's complaining about them, except perhaps the people running them.
MRR 30 sup with ME if using combined units. No ex.
LRR 24 sup, 8 Ex (with ME)
EIR 24 sup, 8 Ex (no ME).
IR   half of all TUGs
FR  half of infantry TUGS but they are not IW/ME any more, so not seen as a problem.

Samnites 24 Sup ME but UJaSSp instead of IW  Still pretty good, though.
Later Mac 8 sup pike.
H Gallic 12 sup, 6 sup fanatic none with ME
L Gallic  12 sup, 6 sup fanatic, 12 sup chariots if you also take 12 average, none with ME
E German 18 sup inf, 6 sup cav, none with ME.
AB 18 sup inf, 12 sup chariots if you also take 12 average, none with ME but you can take EIR allies with 16 sup legion and 6 sup cav.
L Cartho 6 sup ME cav, 18 inf LSp but 18-36 veteran Gallic infantry only upgrade from tribal ave to formed ave.

OK, not as far behind the Romans as I suspected (except Later Mac) so I think it is the combination of +2 in charge, +1 in melee to start with AND the upgrades AND the flexible fight-in-all-terrains. 

Despite all that, the army results from numerous uses on https://www.dracostandard.co.uk/ArmyStats do not show any great benefit from using these armies.

74
I agree with Robin - if itís not broken donít fix it. With the possible exception of the Praetorian Guard, which is likely over-rated for much of the Imperial period, I am not seeing implausible historical outcomes in games. Furthermore, competitions are not being dominated by successful Roman armies so I donít believe they are overpowered.

I'm guessing the idea was prompted by the assertion that it is pointless taking a Hellenistic or barbarian army to a Legion fight. If correct (if) then it is broken.

But it might simply be that in a game of rock/paper/scissors, Romans exist in a historical/geographical sweet spot where they are rock and everyone else is scissors.

However, if Nik is right that historically veteran legions stood up against cataphracts, and it is obvious that superior impact weapon melee expert has the advantage over average pike (Polybius' comments notwithstanding), what can you do against them?

75
List Queries / Re: Points Systems
« on: November 14, 2023, 10:26:45 PM »
Well he certainly had a cunning plan or two  8)

Still, it's prima facie evidence that Romans will be fine if the superiors and exceptionals can't have melee expert.

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