Quote from: LawrenceG on November 08, 2023, 10:43:34 AM

Quote from: LeslieIan on November 07, 2023, 07:15:12 PM
Skullduggery was rampant, and samurai often picked through battlefields, claiming crowns off cadavers that they had not even felled.

Is this the origin of the term "skullduggery"?

No. Skulduggery was originally an Americanism, a variant of Scottish sculduddery "fornication, lewd conduct, obscenity." In American usage, skulduggery has cleaned up its act and means only "dishonorable dealings, trickery." Neither sculduddery nor skulduggery has a reliable etymology.

In the Muromachi Samurai list in the historic note The following statement is made:-

"Thought this period the traditional samurai focus on the Bow and the Sword was in decline"

These two statements to me to be wrong in light of modern thinking.

Swords where never a primary weapon on the battlefield during the Samurai period, "There was also a noticeable rise in the number of swordsmiths around this time. In the late Heian period, Shimokawa Ushio records references to 450 smiths, compared to 1,550 in the Kamakura period and 3,550 in the Muromachi period. This is not to say that archers, both mounted and on foot, were obsolete just yet. In fact, records of battle wounds analyzed by historians Thomas Conlan, Suzuki Masaya, and others show that in the Nanbokuchō period (1334–92) arrow wounds were more prevalent than any other battle injury. Trawling through 175 documents, Suzuki found 554 identifiable injuries in addition to 44 fatalities. Of the injuries, 480 (86.6 percent) were caused by arrows; 46 (8.3 percent) by bladed weapons; 15 (2.6 percent) by rocks hurled by sling or rolled from hilltops or fortresses; and 6 (1.1 percent) by spears. Suzuki postulated that even during the Nanbokuchō period sword use was much less a factor in battle than projectile weapons.", taken from The Art of Killing swordsmanship in medieval japan


Even later in the period of warring states " Suzuki Masaya's research reveals that of the 584 wounds logged in war records from 1563 to 1600, 263 were inflicted by guns, 126 by arrows, 99 by spears, and 30 by rocks. Only forty warriors suffered sword lacerations, and twenty-six were felled by a combination of weapons. On the basis of this analysis Suzuki contends that although swords were certainly brandished in the fray, they were more useful for removing the heads of fallen foe (kubi-tori) than engaging in actual combat. The kubi-tori were cleaned up and presented for inspection as "invoices for payment" for services rendered. Skullduggery was rampant, and samurai often picked through battlefields, claiming crowns off cadavers that they had not even felled." Remember the Naginata is a blade weapon.

So should there be more Archers in later Japanese  Armies?

Quote from: Ambiorix on June 25, 2023, 12:24:04 PM
Also I noticed there are no skirmishers in the list, is this an oversight ?  FYI, the Takeda Screen show Samurai Archers ahead of the Ashigaru Archers, operate some distance from the main body as 'skirmishers', acting as sharpshooters and snipers.

This might be the ritual archery contest before the battle, where the leaders of each force call out his lineage then shoots a Ya towards the other leaders only if both force had the same level of linage would the battle start, this did not always happen.   

Quote from: SteveO on October 27, 2023, 10:10:18 AM
I don't think it is different views per se but rather that both sorts of defence were actually used. 😊

That's a better way of putting it. 

My research is very confusing based on books translated post WW2 and text from translated in the last few years, and my own (very poor) translation skills. There seem to be statements like "a wall was built over the mountain", and "the wall was carried over the mountain", both statements are true translation but which is correct, since this "wall" could be stone or Bamboo it's hard to tell, but in two early scroll "the wall" is said to have been on the north side of the castle, and in the next scroll it says they are no  walls to the north of the castle, the 2nd is more correct (maybe).         

Quote from: lionheartrjc on October 22, 2023, 05:54:29 AM
Thanks for the information.  Happy to allow Barricades with the option of Obstacles.

Richard

That works for me This allows for Both views

Leslie

Here is an example of a bamboo frame with "Straw", also part of the Oskar campaign showing earth banks build up to fight from behind

[attachment deleted by admin]

check out the Genkō Bōrui, build to repel the Mongols. Also Bamboo and wax wood are very light and could stop a Ya from 55kg Yumi's which is more than cast iron can. The lattice work Bamboo frames where often covered in Wax wood stick bundles, to allow Yumi and Yari to fight from behind. Also a lot of the stone walls where made from Volcanic Stone which also very light.

Wax wood stick bundles are sometimes called straw sticks. BTW has a toxin in them  

Maybe the best option would be to allow either/or

Quote from: nikgaukroger on January 10, 2022, 07:34:27 PM
Must admit I've never been quite sure on how the Anatolians are dealt with if you have 2 Anatolian generals - list does seem to talk about " a contingent" rather than but there are 2 generals, perhaps you can have 2 (not sure why you'd want to personally, but that's just my preference) unlike, say, the Later Crusader it does not state 2 contingents are allowed. Historically I don't think it would be implausible to have multiple contingents.

As for the Hittite subbie commanding them that is singular so presumably just 1; and it does say if no Anatolian generals (plural) are taken.

I was just re-doing my lists after Batcave event and was a bit confused.

In the new 2022 army list you can have up to two Anatolian vassal Sub-General does that mean you can have up to two Anatolian contingent, for is the Anatolian contingent split like an internal Allied would spilt and normal list?

If you are allowed 2 Anatolian contingent could both of these be controlled by Hittite Sub Generals?

Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 24, 2021, 07:58:29 PM
It is to cover the situation where a player chooses to deploy their Samurai bases 2 deep within the formation so that they cannot shoot in 2 ranks and so not get the dice colour downgrade which they would have if only 1 rank. It is not the intention they can do this. 1 rank Skilled shooters shooting will (usually) be on a White dice unless shooting at Superior or Exceptional.

At Superior will be Black + and Exceptional Black, is that right?

Quote from: badhabum on December 11, 2021, 12:11:02 PM
There are many aspects in this discussion. First I think we must remember this is a game . The aim is to have fun and try as best as we can to have a "good feeling on how we think it happened"
Now what does skilled represent ? better bows, better shooters ? should we limit their numbers ?

W

To me Skilled is about all of the above and more, but not limit there numbers, because it "breaks" the game "They are too Good" if they are historical good, and you down grading them destroys, because people don't like them, that destroys my love of the game. Are the Japanese Skilled in horse archery?
They practiced archery on horse and had formalised Schools from the 10th Century onwards to teach how to Shoot a bow and the other aspect which Nik mentioned was MeG is a mass battle game, the Japanese archery school teach you to shoot with others, once you understand how to release an Ya(Arrow), like I said on the Facebook post these school would teach everyone but Merchants and Gaijin (that's Foreigners, thankfully that has rule has relaxed). On my Kyudo Seminar today when we where being instructed, the Sensei said "Remember these movements are to be small and straight, to allow other to shoot, these movement come from the Bushi in time of war".  Are the bows powerful one of the issues we in the west measure a bow's strength by draw weight, the Japanese would measure the strength by how many men it takes to string by 18kg at 90cm would be coincided a one man Yumi, my draw if around 98cm meaning my draw weight is around 26kg (57lbs, it has been measured with draw scales), in the  14th century Yumi's of 3 and 4 men to string where often talk about as the norm, with 5 and 6 man Yumi's. Kanjuro Shibata a Yumi maker from a family of Yumi makers going by at least 450 Years has made a Yumi based on a Yumi from from a Kyoto Temple, rated a 3 man bow, which I have had the honour drawing, that was Measured a 60Kg (132lb) and 90cm, so for me the draw weight was between 68kg and 80kg (did not measure it), and it has been mentioned in ballistic testing the Ya from a Yumi and and Arrow from a Longbow are travelling a bout the same speed at the same draw weight. The Ya (arrow) are also made by craftsmen the arrowhead where often made from steel. So the Yumi is Good, The Ya is Good, The archers where trained, not only to shoot well but with other, so that makes them Good, you pay extra points for them, and you can downgrade if you want, MeG is a historical games, based on history and the experience of History. I think I have shown evidence of that Mounted Samurai should be skilled, however the Japanese when they invaded did not seem to do as well, I think that is more to do with the Japanese court politics in both the Shogun and Imperial count, even the guard where spilt up in to two group "The House of the left and the House of the right"  these group where always trying to take control and trying to rule from behind the curtain, so even when the army of Japanese  invaded the armies where often split up with lower graded troops sent to invade or to maintain the invasion, while the better troops stayed at home to maintain the power base of the clan.               

Quote from: nikgaukroger on December 10, 2021, 08:12:07 AM
One thing that would assist greatly with this discussion would be answers to a question that was asked at least 2 years ago (and probably 3) by RJC that unfortunately generated no responses.

The question was basically what is the evidence from battle of the effect of Japanese archery by both the samurai and their followers or ashigaru. This is rather important (IMO) as MeG is representing the effect of massed bodies of archers and not individuals, so information on what happened (to the best of our knowledge) is given significant weight when assigning classifications.

So anything that can shed light on this would be good grist to the mill.

What is meant by evidence, we know that at the Battle of Torikai Gate November 1274 about equal number of Mongolians and allies where defeated by my Japanese lead by Takezaki Suenaga, and a group of reinforcement which where lead by Shairaishi Michiyasu, there is a scroll which contains images of the fighting including a picture of a group of Samurai shooting from horsedriving the Mongolians diving them away
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bun%27ei#/media/File:M%C5%8Dko_Sh%C5%ABrai_Ekotoba4.JPG. however this image is a copy of copy the original, and many parts of this conflict have been recreated to make the Japanese look more heroic, and have been used to create Noh and Kabuki plays these fictionalized. These fictionalized versions have become "facts". like the accounts of other battles in history.
         

Transferring this from "Facebook"

I'm very disappoint seeing the changes for Samurai, going to Experienced, given "From the 15th century Heki Danjō Masatsugu revolutionized archery with his new and accurate approach called hi, kan, chū (fly, pierce, center), and his footman's archery spread rapidly, to match the mounted archery schools which had been created after the Genpi wars. Many new schools were formed, some of which, such as Heki-ryū Chikurin-ha, Heki-ryū Sekka-ha and Heki-ryū Insai-ha, remain today. This information is from ANKF. Samurai and most Japanese archers where trained to shoot in disciplined way a practice, locating and "aiming" at single target, no blacking the sky with arrows the Heki Danjō Masatsug philosophy, Powerbow and skill is very powerful combination but in Japanese warfare maybe the range should be reduced since they normally picked a target rather than area shooting 2Mu range for Mounted and 4Mu for foot. In Kyudo we do a practice based on the ancient practice called hitotsu-mato sharei, which is based on the cycling of mounted archers allowing you to load, draw, aim, fire, recover, and collect more arrow repeat, In Kyudo we do this a a slow and very controlled, but this is a method of practice which is used by modern armed forces to practice difficult manoeuvres, like the red arrows practicing they formation changed on foot and riding bikes. We also do a practice based on the foot warfare and is called Mochi-Mato Sharei.   

Quote from: nikgaukroger on August 30, 2021, 01:33:58 PM
They are still allied troops even if commanded by a Hittite sub-general so no as Professional generals can apply their cards to any other non-allied troops.

So the Hittite Professional Sub General assigned to the Ally troops becomes of that nation, so you can't gift cards from AC? As he is not an ally general so you don't show his cards at the start of the game, is the only advantage?

Hi Richard

Hittite sub generals can command some allies troops,  so the question is basically can any Hittite sub-general or command?

Quote from: lionheartrjc on August 30, 2021, 09:06:19 AM
You cannot gift to ally generals but you can gift to professional sub-generals (from a professional army commander).

Professional generals can only command non-allied troops.

Richard